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Re: the army [Re: stefan]
    #3604644 -

To bring this back on topic(and away from the peaceniks) there are several uses for a military. One example of this is the tsunami efforts the USA has made. Diverging military power to help in a time of great crisis. A military is also quite useful in protecting ones homeland. A military can be used to train and educate people in various tasks(granted this can be done without a military). A military is a great tool to instill a sense of patriotism and belonging in an individual and weed out freeloaders(think obligatory 2 year service).
If a country got rid of it's army(I'm assuming you mean military), then it is highly probable that one of it's enemies would make an attempt on it. In it's now mostly defenseless state the outcome of the war would be based upon the citizens ability and willingness to combat the invading force or the help of another militarized country.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: the army [Re: daimyo]
    #3604657 -

Please pay attention to what is going on in the thread...

we are going on in circles here..


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: the army [Re: daimyo]
    #3604668 -

And one more thing:

Tell me at least one point of patriotism? What is it usefull for?


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: the army [Re: skystone]
    #3604709 -

Please pay attention? What did I miss? There are no Circe's. Some folks decided to globalize the question. As I read it, he asked what is the purpose of an army(one country, not the whole world). Also asked, was what would happen if a country disbanded the army. I am trying to bring it back to those basic questions. Another thread should be started to debate the merits of global disarmament.

Patriotism is useful for indoctrinating the people of a country to stand up for that country no matter what. Sure this can be abused(so can anything, so leave that argument alone), but it can also be used positively. If you have a bunch of people that don't care about their country, then if it is invaded they may not fight. If they are patriotic country-people they will see an invasion of their country as an attack on their personal well-being and be willing to lose their life for the preservation of their country and it's ways.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: the army [Re: daimyo]
    #3604761 -

daimyo said:
Please pay attention? What did I miss? There are no cirlces. Some folks decided to globalize the question. As I read it, he asked what is the purpose of an army(one country, not the whole world). Also asked, was what would happen if a country disbanded the army. I am trying to bring it back to those basic questions. Another thread should be started to debate the merits of global disarmament.


ok fair enough..

daimyo said:
Patriotism is useful for indoctrinating the people of a country to stand up for that country no matter what. Sure this can be abused(so can anything, so leave that argument alone), but it can also be used positively. If you have a bunch of people that don't care about their country, then if it is invaded they may not fight. If they are patriotic countrypeople they will see an invasion of their country as an attack on their personal wellbeing and be willing to lose their life for the preservation of their country and it's ways.


Well since you have rolled the topic back to its originas, I guess in that small contexts, patriotism is usefull.
But on a global humanity scale, patriotism is an obstacle really.
Cultural preservation is one thing (and i think is important), but
having a strong sence of belonging to one isolated nation wich is separate from the other is an obstacle for peace.
Wars are fought between these closed patriotistic and nationalistic systems. If there was no sence of belonging to a certain closed
unit of a contry and people, there would be no boarders, and struggles would not be so global as they are now.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the bad side of patriotism is
that people start believing that they are indeed different and are separate by these imaginary boarders and that they are somehow separated. But if you step aside and look things objectivley, there
are no boarders. They are just in our minds.
This has been a cause of many wars. This illusion that we are separate.

If someone came to eath from another planet and looked at things,
all he would see is a bunch of people fighting each other and thinking that there are some "sides" in war, when in fact, all there is is a bunch of people killing each other.

This is the negative side of patriotism, this is the negative side of
the sence of belonging to a nation.

People have made so many "toys" to simplify some issues. Those toys
include rules, groups, codes, limits, boarders etc. It's all find
as long as the children don't mistake toys for real objects.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: the army [Re: skystone]
    #3604788 -

skystone said:
Well there is no point in discussing it if there is a single country in the world that is not ready to reject army.
Were are discussing in UNDER the assumption that every country gives up on military.



Actually nowhere in the original thread is the assumption made that every country gives up on having a military.

stefan said:
how are your views on this? for what reasons is having an army needed, or not needed? what would happen if a country got rid of his army one day?



I think I pointed out what benefits I feel there are, now I will say what I believe would happen. Plain and simple another nation, group whatever will take over. Provided the military that they gave up was the only one protecting them. Get real, do you honestly think that this wouldn't happen. The cause of this is due to our own human nature. It's caused by greed, envy, desire for whatever. Theres no way to take that out of people. Maybe if humans evolved enough that its influence would be less, but lets look back in history for how long we as humans have existed. How much evolution do you see? Not much really, we are basically the same as we were thousands of years ago, it's just that now we have more knowledge and tools. We ourselfs have changed barely at all.

skystone said:
Asteroid? What good are soldiers and guns against asteroids?
If there was an asteroid, the government could make warheads for it's destruction or send a spaceship with some probe to do something.
But you don't need army for that. Warheads are launched by technicians, and made by scientists.



Warheads made by scientists that were developed through a miltary program. Also when considering the good a miltary can create, think of all the medicines created as a result of the driving force of a military.

skystone said:
Violence is a primitive impulse, a relic, a leftover from our early animal days. Such an advanced species that can travel faster than speed of light must have surpassed that early stage of evolution.
And so shall we, if we don't destroy ourselfs in the next millenium or two.



Our views of what our primitive existance is, differ greatly. Also which species are you refering to that is so advanced and why do you assume that by being advanced is one that is peaceful? Not that I don't believe that to be the case, however I just don't feel there is any evidence to support it as so.

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Re: the army [Re: relativexistance]
    #3604908 -

You do have a point in everything, but not on the scale I am thinking..Just try and strech a bit further, use your imagination, say "what if"...
You are right in what you say, but I think you didn't really get the idea of how far I am looking. I'm talking about massive jump in awareness of an avarage individual that would take thousands of years..

For example, it is true that military did give us a lot of progress, but then what I am trying to say is, isn't it sad that we need
war to motivate us to improove our technology?

I'm saying that with such a massive progress in consciousness of the species that would result in total piece, giving up on violence etc. ,
Other things would come along, such as motivation for progress of the species in each avarage individual of the society.

Well, as for aliens, I am starting with the assumption that
intelligence brigs a better understanding of the universe, that is greater consciousness, which would include getting over the idea, or illusion of individuality, and greater harmony with the nature, society and universe. That is what I believe, there is no way of prooving it or disprooving i I think, time will tell.

I am aware that today's popular view on evolution is very materialistic. People imagine evolution of human race would alow us to walk on walls or be a better predator or something.
I just don't agree with that.
I think for the past few thousands of years human evolution has stopped being physical, and has continued as the evolution of the nervuous system wich will compensate for the degradation of the physical component. (for example medicines instead of imunity)

I just believe that the evolution of the nervious system
reaches into better connection between other nervuous systems,
which would outrule war and violence in the end.
Sort of like computers involving to internet..


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: the army [Re: skystone]
    #3604910 -

Quote:
skystone said:

If there was no sence of belonging to a certain closed
unit of a contry and people, there would be no boarders, and struggles would not be so global as they are now.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the bad side of patriotism is
that people start believing that they are indeed different and are separate by these imaginary boarders and that they are somehow separated. But if you step aside and look things objectivley, there
are no boarders. They are just in our minds.
This has been a cause of many wars. This illusion that we are separate.

If someone came to eath from another planet and looked at things,
all he would see is a bunch of people fighting each other and thinking that there are some "sides" in war, when in fact, all there is is a bunch of people killing each other.

This is the negative side of patriotism, this is the negative side of
the sence of belonging to a nation.




I have news for you, those borders are real and are important. just because something isn't a physical object, does not make it imaginary. Go try and tell the judge when you get a speeding ticket that his speed limit is imaginary. Is 2+2=4 imaginary or the internet and what information on it imaginary? What kind of world would it be if there weren't any of these said borders or so called labels? It would be an entirely choatic antiproductive one at that. Borders are necessary to identify areas. Without them there would be no way to know where you are. How would mail get delivered or you find your way across the country to go see family relatives.

Quote:
skystone said:
People have made so many "toys" to simplify some issues. Those toys
include rules, groups, codes, limits, boarders etc. It's all find
as long as the children don't mistake toys for real objects.




Such a world would bring the end of our civilization, it is just a fact that rules are necessary for anything to get done. Don't try and lessen their importance, because without them you would not be able to do anything you can today. Rules and standards are actually what allows us to agree and complete things. Everything has a standard, from how fast you are able to drive on the road down to the operating voltage of electrical devices. Without these standards we could not agree on anything and thus would bring choas.

Edited by relativexistance (01/09/05 08:26 PM)

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Re: the army [Re: relativexistance]
    #3604930 -


" Without them there would be no way to know where you are. How would mail get delivered or you find your way across the country to go see family relatives."

you are on earth..
and you can keep the names of the names of the streets..


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: the army [Re: relativexistance]
    #3604953 -

Quote:
The cause of this is due to our own human nature. It's caused by greed, envy, desire for whatever. There's no way to take that out of people. Maybe if humans evolved enough that its influence would be less, but lets look back in history for how long we as humans have existed. How much evolution do you see? Not much really, we are basically the same as we were thousands of years ago, it's just that now we have more knowledge and tools. We ourselves have changed barely at all.




I agree. Human nature being what it is, force is required to maintain peace. Sad but true.

I think that it's also obvious that evolution has made us warlike. Those tribes which were the most aggressive and strongest on the battlefield could take and hold the good farmland and hunting grounds; they survived to pass on their genes while the blood lines of the week and non war like perished, though I am sure that many survived as slaves.

Perhaps now that we are living in a world where there is equal opportunity for most people to reproduce the war like genes will be thinned out. However, I don't think in our lifetimes we will get to the point where a standing army is no longer necessary.

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Re: the army [Re: skystone]
    #3604957 -

skystone said:
I am aware that today's popular view on evolution is very materialistic. People imagine evolution of human race would alow us to walk on walls or be a better predator or something.
I just don't agree with that.
I think for the past few thousands of years human evolution has stopped being physical, and has continued as the evolution of the nervuous system wich will compensate for the degradation of the physical component. (for example medicines instead of imunity)



I think thats a really interesting idea. I haven't entirely considered that before.
Regarding the just having street signs. Isn't that creating somewhat of a boreder itself. Also, how would you be able to tell someone where you were going or even know yourself if you were going overseas?

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Re: the army [Re: relativexistance]
    #3605000 -

Well America will always be called America, New York will be called New York. It's not about names, it's about the idea of isolation.

I mean inside once country you have no smaller boarders, but you still know where you are...areas have names, have their own culture etc.

Now what I am saying is to have global "country" , or in other words, no coutry at all, just us, one race only limited by species.
A lot of people get the idea that it is ok to love people from one nation and hate from other. But that is an illusion because all of them are the same, all of them are humans.

I think political boarders give us these ideas, and that lack of these boarders, or in other words, merging of all nations would erase such ideas of being different, or special, or superior over others.

you would still pick up a phone and say, "I'm in Germany, I'll be arriving to America the next day"
But names, or symbols of "America" and "Germany" would not mean
"a land where americans or germans live" it would just be a geographical location with all its uniquesness from the past and present


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

Edited by skystone (01/09/05 08:47 PM)

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Re: the army [Re: skystone]
    #3605247 -

That's how it is now isn't it? Changing/erasing borders will do nothing to erase hate. Some people do not like other people. It has been that way for a long time, and will continue to be that way forever.
Even if you get a majority of people to believe in a one nation world, there will be those who oppose it. They will hate those who are for it, and those who are for it, will hate them.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: the army [Re: daimyo]
    #3605265 -

daimyo said:
That's how it is now isn't it? Changing/erasing borders will do nothing to erase hate. Some people do not like other people. It has been that way for a long time, and will continue to be that way forever.
Even if you get a majority of people to believe in a one nation world, there will be those who oppose it. They will hate those who are for it, and those who are for it, will hate them.


Exactly!
That is why I keep saying that such changes can not be forced.
They will happed when the avarage man stops and says:
"I've had enough of this, there is no poin in it"
You can not "get a majority of people to believe" as you put it.
They will just start beliveing, just as an avarage person today believes it is wrong to kill a man just because he got your angry.
In medival period, it was not considered so wrong.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: the army [Re: stefan]
    #3605284 -

As a former Infantryman it is obvious to me that while not needing an Army is a high ideal, it is also impossible unless everybody in the world gives up having one...and this ain't gonna happen...ever. Warfare is older than the Bible. When I was in the Army I was told being an Infantryman was the world's SECOND oldest profession.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: the army [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3605306 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
As a former Infantryman it is obvious to me that while not needing an Army is a high ideal, it is also impossible unless everybody in the world gives up having one...and this ain't gonna happen...ever. Warfare is older than the Bible. When I was in the Army I was told being an Infantryman was the world's SECOND oldest profession.


Well, we don't know if this is going to happen or not, looking at past does not give any information about the future.
I guess right now it is about optimism and pessimism becuase we can only speculate, but imagine fishes thinking: "we are never going to get out of watter,I mean look at history, we have always been in watter, it is burried deep within us"

..yet here we are talking and breathing air

never say never..


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: the army [Re: skystone]
    #3605314 -

"looking at past does not give any information about the future"
Then why do we study history? The past always repeats itself in one form or another.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: the army [Re: skystone]
    #3605343 -

Fish still don't live out of the water. MAYBE an evolved version of, but not fish.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: the army [Re: daimyo]
    #3605348 -

A lungfish does.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: the army [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3605372 -

You got me there.
I didn't mean one kind of fish though. I meant fish in general.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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