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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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the army
    #3602288 -

the other day I was having a discussion with a fellow Dutchman about the army. It started because he said that the army is a complete waste of money and we should get rid of it completely.
I didn't agree with him because the army is good for other things that warfare too imho and it might be the easiest thing to say just to get rid of it but in reality it would probably be a very bad idea.

how are your views on this? for what reasons is having an army needed, or not needed? what would happen if a country got rid of his army one day?

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Re: the army [Re: stefan]
    #3602301 -

I don't think we should have standing armies. Especially in the UK, the only threat is from terrorists, and you can't fight them with an army, you fight them with special forces, whatever the Bush administration says.

If the political situation changed drastically, then we could still easily draft up an army from various professions in good time to face any threat.

I am in favour of cutting military spending by a huge amount (the majority of it). If you want a peaceful world, someone's got to start getting rid of their weapons first. Conflict is often caused by paranoia about others' military capabilities (Iraq, the cold war), and worries about what they plan to do with it. If you visibly get rid of your WMD (weapons that are unjustifiable in almost any situation due to their indiscriminate nature) then you pull out of the arms race. Maybe others would follow suit, but either way you'd have a big lump of money to improve the country's well being or lower taxes.

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Re: the army [Re: deafpanda]
    #3602342 -

good points!
it seems to work with the uk police force (they have no guns right?)

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Re: the army [Re: stefan]
    #3602357 -

Yeah that's right, your average cop doesn't carry a gun and this doesn't seem to be a problem.

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Re: the army [Re: deafpanda]
    #3602453 -

I think we should get rid of it. Armies are like symbols of our fear and destruction.

And when I say "we" I mean, we humans. There is nobody to attack us
on this planet, we can only kill each other.
I feel the same way about conterys, nations, borders. We don't need
to be devided into nations.

I believe once the consciousness of the people gets to a higher level, border will fall on their own without ANY political revolutions or changes. Armies will just turn and go home, and politics will have no power over people, because their hands, the hands that gave them power will just give up.

It will happen from inside. In the past revolutions and external changes were the means of major changes, like comunism (which failed because of lack of consciousness of those who ran it) or the latest wave of capitalism. But now it is not possible to do that anymore.
No external change, no revolution will ever bring us stability and peace, it has to come from inside, from people's minds.

This is the positive version i think.
The negative alternative would be a nuclear (or god knows what people invent in the future) war perhapse.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: the army [Re: skystone]
    #3603141 -

get rid of all militaries. it WOULD work perfectly but only if everyone did it. Even so experiments in pacifism in the modern world have been succesfull. look at costa rica, stuck in a war torn southern region, totally disbanded all of there military so that everyone could instead have medicare and education. There economy is now thriving.

In america, trillions upon trillions of dollars are sunk on the most insane waste of money the world has ever known, as bloated generals continue to throw away money at higher-than-cold-war levels. That money could quite literally be used to feed, shelter, clothe and educate every child on this fucking planet.

We COULD have abolished most of the worlds huge problems by now, easily. yes enviromental and humanitarian crises could have been more or less a thing of the past. but instead we built tanks and nukes and submarines and nucluer submarine tanks.

damnit

i dont need these thoughts in my morning.

*deep breath*

oooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

:grin:


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: the army [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3603391 -

I was speaking on a planetary scale. All of us.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: the army [Re: skystone]
    #3603408 -

so if there were no wars, in this world, would we ever celebrate, peace on earth? :P


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: the army [Re: skystone]
    #3603500 -

in that case, absolutley disband all armed forces. Personal conflicts and group conflicts if nescessary can be resolved in unarmed martial arts combat.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: the army [Re: Gomp]
    #3603530 -

We don't need to celebrate it.
We should take it for granted, and concentrate on science, art, phylosophy and any other creative process.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: the army [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3603582 -

a symbolic army for emergency assistence is an excellent opportunity for youth and service to society.

a war machine is very questionable.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: the army [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3603591 -

What kid of emergency assistance?
There is the fire department for all kinds of catastrophies


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: the army [Re: skystone]
    #3603629 -

the fire department is sized for statistically frequent problems of a range of types, the army is for statistically infrequent eventualities of a wider ranging set of duties, and authority.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: the army [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3603713 -

Ok, then some kind of civil service or something, but they don't have to have weapons


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: the army [Re: skystone]
    #3603931 -

Just because a threat does not exist, doesn't mean that it won't ever exist. It's a nobel ideal, however a very unrealistic one at that. Survial is only possible through fighting or running away and running away is not always a prossibility. There will always be potential for a threat as well as the need for a force to protect against that threat. Also, who says that threat even has to be human?

Also regarding it being considered a waste of money, consider those that thought the space program was a waste of money. The fact of the matter is that building an army is in fact feeding, sheltering and educating many individuals. It creates jobs as well as provides a driving force for innovation. Without such money spent on its existance there would be far less knowledge than there is today, whether it be in technological knowledge or say in healthcare.

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Re: the army [Re: relativexistance]
    #3604005 -

relativexistance said:
Just because a threat does not exist, doesn't mean that it won't ever exist. It's a nobel ideal, however a very unrealistic one at that. Survial is only possible through fighting or running away and running away is not always a prossibility. There will always be potential for a threat as well as the need for a force to protect against that threat. Also, who says that threat even has to be human?

Also regarding it being considered a waste of money, consider those that thought the space program was a waste of money. The fact of the matter is that building an army is in fact feeding, sheltering and educating many individuals. It creates jobs as well as provides a driving force for innovation. Without such money spent on its existance there would be far less knowledge than there is today, whether it be in technological knowledge or say in healthcare.


If the entire population of earth rejects violence and army, what threat is there? Aliens making an invasion?


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: the army [Re: skystone]
    #3604273 -

We don't need.
:heart: :thumbup:


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: the army [Re: skystone]
    #3604280 -

skystone said:
If the entire population of earth rejects violence and army, what threat is there? Aliens making an invasion?


The key word being IF. The reality of the fact is that the entire population is nowhere near completely rejecting violence and army and unfortunately it doesn't look like it will be that way anytime soon.

Regarding the alien invasion which you speak of; is that not entirely a possibility? Also why does that danger even have to be alive, I'm sure if some giant asteroid came along and were about to destroy the earth, all of that "unnecessary" time and money spent on developing an armed force would have some play into protecting the earth from destruction.

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Re: the army [Re: relativexistance]
    #3604430 -

Well there is no point in discussing it if there is a single country in the world that is not ready to reject army.
Were are discussing in UNDER the assumption that every country gives up on military.

Asteroid? What good are soldiers and guns against asteroids?
If there was an asteroid, the government could make warheads for it's destruction or send a spaceship with some probe to do something.
But you don't need army for that. Warheads are launched by technicians, and made by scientists.

Violence is a primitive impulse, a relic, a leftover from our early animal days. Such an advanced species that can travel faster than speed of light must have surpassed that early stage of evolution.
And so shall we, if we don't destroy ourselfs in the next millenium or two.

We allso must learn to give up on fear. Paranoya has destroyed so many lives. Remember the chaos in America caused by fear of communists.

Like I said, such a change (like giving up on armies) would come from inside. It can not be made by introducing a new law, or any other polytical way. Politics will dissapear in silence, on their own,
slowly as people stop believing in them.

The only reason politicians have power now is because we believe
that they have power. We=citizens+soldiers+cops, all of us.

What power would a general have if all his men started believing in non violence and stopped obeying? Military court? What if
all the judges at the court stopped believing too?

It will collapse from inside one day


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: the army [Re: relativexistance]
    #3604437 -

relativexistance said:
skystone said:
If the entire population of earth rejects violence and army, what threat is there? Aliens making an invasion?


The key word being IF. The reality of the fact is that the entire population is nowhere near completely rejecting violence and army and unfortunately it doesn't look like it will be that way anytime soon.



What's the hurry? In thousand years, or much more, however long it takes.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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