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Shop: Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: ]
    #3332953 -

something is worth whatever you can get someone to pay you for it.

That's not what you said tho. You said the work was worth that. Clearly it isn't, otherwise americans would be paid exactly the same for the same job and corporations wouldn't move factories abroad.

even identical goods are worth different amounts to different people in different places.

er...I think you'll find lots of Nike's get sold in America so why can't american workers make them?

there are many other inputs to the actual sale of a pair of shoes

Sure, but the key is paying slave labour rates. Everything else is way down the list.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: Xlea321]
    #3332956 -

I can't help but note the sole example you are able to provide is an article more than seven years old from Indonesia.

Will you ever answer the question? Here it is again, to save you the effort of scrolling back --

If your tired old Marxist "race to the bottom" canard has any credibility, how do you explain the readily observable fact that hundreds of thousands of businesses worldwide pay their employers more than their governments demand they pay?

I'm currently in Ottawa Canada. I've been here two weeks and will be here two weeks more. I've been picking up new clothes, favorite foods, computer programs and miscellaneous bits and pieces which are either difficult to find or expensive to buy in the Dominican Republic. I have conversed with many employees of many companies in the last two weeks. None of them are unionized. Most are in their early twenties. None are paid minimum wage. Few have more than a high school education. If I were to move back here tomorrow I would have no difficulty finding employment for at least double the Canadian minimum wage. Why do you think that is, Alex?


pinky


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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: GazzBut]
    #3332966 -


1. Wealthy people like to invest their money. When wealthy people
invest their money, jobs for poor schmucks are created.


Yeah and where did you learn this little gem from?

...I see you misunderstood what I meant.

This is trickle-down economics. The theory is that when rich people
get a bunch of money back(that they paid in in the first place),
they invest and spend, which creates more jobs.

Bush thinks trickle-down economics works. I never said that trickle-
down economics works. It sounds good in theory, but I have not
seen statistical evidence to back it up.

That is the real reason WHY Bush decided to pursue the tax cuts...
I have seen all kinds of Left-Wing conspiracy theories about
why Bush wanted those tax cuts for the wealthy. I don't buy stuff
like Bush wanted to kiss ass to rich people and expand the "ruling
elites" power over the common man or crap like that.

I don't like Bush. I rarely ever agree with Bush. I didn't vote
for Bush. But, when he does something, I think that he thinks he is
doing the right thing. It's too bad he's wrong so much.


RandalFlagg said:

I do not understand this whole class warfare/class envy stance
at all...



GazzBut said:

I dont understand why you are applying this to anything Ive said.
Care to explain why? You wouldnt just be thinking on autopilot and
not actually paying attention to whats being said would you?

GazzBut also said:

Or does it simply create alot more low income jobs and help to
increase the wealth divide even more...

Hm...that last statement seems to reek of class envy and hatred
of the wealthy to me...I think my statement applies to a lot of
the stuff that many economic Lefties say in this forum.

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: Phred]
    #3332969 -

can't help but note the sole example

That's a cursory examination for you..surely you are not foolish enough to imagine I couldn't find more?

how do you explain the readily observable fact that hundreds of thousands of businesses worldwide pay their employers more than their governments demand they pay?

In your hysterical eagerness to troll, the question as you have phrased it is nonsensical. Rephrase it and make sense.

And while you're how do you explain the readily observable fact that hundreds of thousands of business worldwide pay their employees less than the amount their governments demand they pay?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: Xlea321]
    #3332970 -

That's not what you said tho. You said the work was worth that.

labor is identical to other goods and services in this regard. when we say something is worth something, we mean it is worth something to someone. it is worth whatever they would voluntarily pay for it. nothing can be worth more (in economic terms) than you can get someone to pay you for it. who would it be worth more to?

I think you'll find lots of Nike's get sold in America so why can't american workers make them?

because the inputs are cheaper abroad.

you aren't denying the fact that even identical goods are worth different amounts to different people in different places... are you?

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3332972 -

Quote:
Hm...that last statement seems to reek of class envy and hatred
of the wealthy to me...I



Well once you realise that your perceptions are as much reliant on your own world view as they are based on reality perhaps we can have a sensible discussion.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: Phred]
    #3332973 -


If I were to move back here tomorrow I would have no difficulty
finding employment for at least double the Canadian minimum wage.

And the Canadian government would be happy to take more than
half of that wage from you.  :smirk:

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: ]
    #3332986 -

nothing can be worth more (in economic terms) than you can get someone to pay you for it.

But you agree you would have to pay an american worker far more for exactly the same work for Nike than you would a south east asian?

because the inputs are cheaper abroad.

Fine. Then we agree these people are most emphatically NOT being paid what their work is worth. They are being paid what some corporation can get away with paying them.

you aren't denying the fact that even identical goods are worth different amounts to different people in different places... are you?


Er..no, I'm saying paying a worker a few cents an hour to make Nike trainers is not "what his work is worth". I presume you now agree on this?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: Xlea321]
    #3333015 -

But you agree you would have to pay an american worker far more for exactly the same work for Nike than you would a south east asian?

yes i do. labor is worth more in america than south east asia.

Fine. Then we agree these people are most emphatically NOT being paid what their work is worth.

no we don't. things are worth different amounts to different people in different places. a big mac is worth less in america than it is in tokyo. a pair of levis is worth less in america than in romania. an AK-47 is worth more in america than in sub-sarahan africa.

I'm saying paying a worker a few cents an hour to make Nike trainers is not "what his work is worth".

worth to whom?

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: ]
    #3333031 -

So two people can do exactly the same work, be paid different amounts and each be paid "what the work is worth"?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: Xlea321]
    #3333040 -

yes.

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: Xlea321]
    #3333045 -

Alex123 writes:

That's a cursory examination for you..surely you are not foolish enough to imagine I couldn't find more?

So what if you could? They don't address the question you are so transparently dodging.

In your hysterical eagerness to troll, the question as you have phrased it is nonsensical. Rephrase it and make sense.

No trolling going on here, Alex... at least on my side. The question makes perfect sense. You just can't answer it without blowing your inane assertion out of the water.

The fact is that the majority of non-unionized businesses in the West pay their workers more than their governments say they must. According to your "race to the bottom hypothesis" this cannot be. Yet it is. Clearly then, your hypothesis is incorrect.

And while you're how do you explain the readily observable fact that hundreds of thousands of business worldwide pay their employees less than the amount their governments demand they pay?

Bullshit. Source, please.


pinky


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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: Phred]
    #3333080 -

Quote:
Bullshit. Source, please.



And now you are denying the black economy? I hope Al doesnt waste any time trying to prove that one to you.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: GazzBut]
    #3333153 -

Alex's claim wasn't that the Mafia doesn't pay minimum wage or that people trade chickens for shoes in some countries -- it was that "hundreds of thousands" of BUSINESSES pay their employees less than they are legally allowed to. I'd like to see a source for that.

pinky


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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: Phred]
    #3333266 -

some points i'd like to make:

can anyone cite an example of the establishment of a minimum wage leading to a notable increase in unemployment and/or large numbers of businesses closing down? This is what business always argues before a minimum wage establishment, yet it is my understanding there are no historical examples of this. Businesses seem quite able to pass on the costs, taking either from their overpaid CEOs/upper management or else consumers.

and in response to pinky's question of why so many businesses pay over minimum wage, its because instead of having to compete for workers starting at a base of $0 an hour, they have to start competing at the minimum wage, so they advertise 'we'll pay you minimum wage + 50 cents' or whatever.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: Tao]
    #3333334 -

Quote:
can anyone cite an example of the establishment of a minimum wage leading to a notable increase in unemployment and/or large numbers of businesses closing down?


Numerous studies from numerous economists in numerous countries have done so. I have several bookmarked on my computer back home. Too lazy to Google it this afternoon, though. You could look them up yourself if you wish.

Quote:
and in response to pinky's question of why so many businesses pay over minimum wage, its because instead of having to compete for workers starting at a base of $0 an hour, they have to start competing at the minimum wage, so they advertise 'we'll pay you minimum wage + 50 cents' or whatever.


LOL!


pinky


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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: Phred]
    #3333357 -

Quote:
LOL!



i dont mean all wages, but the ones that all hover just around the minimum wage.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: Phred]
    #3333373 -

Britain is example of a country who just very recently instituted a minimum wage (higher than u.s. by the way) and they continue to have the lowest unemployment in europe last i heard.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: Phred]
    #3333597 -

Im not talking about the mafia...im talking about the thousands of small businesses that pay below minimum wage, cash in hand etc.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Corporate pay scales... [Re: GazzBut]
    #3333692 -

GazzBut said:
Im not talking about the mafia...im talking about the thousands of small businesses that pay below minimum wage, cash in hand etc.


I don't think this happens much. I have several friends who run businesses in the construction industry. They employ a lot of illegial imigrants and pay them exactly as much as they pay legal workers. If the illegial workers are not paid fairly (which in this case is well above minimum wage) then they quit and find other employment. The only reason they are hired in the first place was not because they were cheap labor, but it was because they were harder workers than most Americans in that industry.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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