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Re: Selective breeding for increased potency [Re: ambigu] * 1
    #29686621 -

Hahaa, yeah. Thanks a lot, ambigu.

I think I'm starting to understand the tediousness of the back-and-forth process now. But I'll try it in parallel โ€” whether I get a decent result or not โ€” at least this will force me to pay closer attention to certain details.

Regarding heterozygosity, which Pastywhyte also mentioned earlier โ€” is there any way to increase it without having to start from spores/a wild clone?

Any way to induce this 'genetic noise' of variability?


--------------------
"Little shark in da bathtub"

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Re: Selective breeding for increased potency [Re: Belintaf] * 2
    #29686643 -

You can increase the heterozygosity by crossing different lines. The selection is still narrow compared to a wild line, but much more than either would have had on their own. When I crossed AA+ with CRS I had a lot of range compared to most domesticated cubes.

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Re: Selective breeding for increased potency [Re: ambigu]
    #29686672 -

ambigu said:
You would still get variable results because of environmental factors. I think thatโ€™s why people often alternate MS grows with clone grows. To see if the desired traits are actually genetic. You could as well skip the whole cloning step, and just do MS grows all the time, but you might stabilise the culture (=decrease heterozygosity) without actually improving the trait youโ€™re looking for, which would be a pity (or even making it worse).

If I wanted to select the best traits, I would try to homogenise (=decrease number of cultures) on Agar as little as possible. Only cleaning up, but no sectoring. That way you have more diversity when selecting a mushroom to make a print, with a higher chance of finding something exceptional.

Removing the Agar step is possible as Rasmodius said. This is something else as removing the cloning step (maybe this was clear already but just in case).

Hopefully this removed a bit of confusion instead of adding to it? :rofl:




This is something I have been reading about recently, pheno hunting and all that

I have heard of sectoring and Im interested in what it means

My current understanding is that sectoring is just different parts of an agar plate that exhibit different forms of growth patterns (plz correct me if Im mistaken)

Thx

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Re: Selective breeding for increased potency [Re: langten69] * 1
    #29686741 -

Thanks for the response, Pasty. I thought I had read that somewhere, but thanks for confirming it.

I guess more unstable or mutation-prone genetics could also be good candidates โ€” is that true?

I've never worked with wild cubensis spores, so I can't really imagine the full extent of the diversity in the results. But I have seen the degree of diversity that some 'domesticated' varieties present.

langten69, you got it right. I'm not at the level of comfortably working with technical jargon yet, but they're basically different genetic expressions that form sectors that can be more or less visually distinct.

When starting from MS, it's more obvious due to the presence of different lineages. What always trips me up is the fact that you can pick mycelium that is faster/slower, more/less dense, tomentose/rhizomorphic, more/less organized, and you still won't know the actual result until you put it to fruit.

And another thing that confuses me are the different sectors that express themselves in clones. Where epigenetics, the variability within the clone itself, and small mutations come into play โ€” all of which can shape characteristics within the very same lineage. A tomentose lineage can pop out a rhizomorphic sector while being the same lineage, just expressing itself that way for some reason (contamination, nutrition, environment, etc.).

If I'm wrong on any of this, I'd appreciate it if someone corrected me.

Hugs :heart:


--------------------
"Little shark in da bathtub"

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Re: Selective breeding for increased potency [Re: langten69] * 1
    #29686748 -

langten69 said:
This is something I have been reading about recently, pheno hunting and all that

I have heard of sectoring and Im interested in what it means

My current understanding is that sectoring is just different parts of an agar plate that exhibit different forms of growth patterns (plz correct me if Im mistaken)

Thx



Yes exactly. And sometimes you see different sectors of mycelium on your plates that are not connected together. As I understand it, in the past it was thought that these different sectors were isolates (so all identical genetics), but thatโ€™s debunked info, since on agar and even in a fruiting body there are likely different compatible cultures working together.

Anyway, I never do it for the sake of isolation/decreasing variation. I prefer to select based on traits that are expressed in mushrooms instead of agar plates :shrug:

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Re: Selective breeding for increased potency [Re: ambigu] * 1
    #29687326 -

Belintaf said:
langten69, you got it right. I'm not at the level of comfortably working with technical jargon yet, but they're basically different genetic expressions that form sectors that can be more or less visually distinct.

When starting from MS, it's more obvious due to the presence of different lineages. What always trips me up is the fact that you can pick mycelium that is faster/slower, more/less dense, tomentose/rhizomorphic, more/less organized, and you still won't know the actual result until you put it to fruit.

And another thing that confuses me are the different sectors that express themselves in clones. Where epigenetics, the variability within the clone itself, and small mutations come into play โ€” all of which can shape characteristics within the very same lineage. A tomentose lineage can pop out a rhizomorphic sector while being the same lineage, just expressing itself that way for some reason (contamination, nutrition, environment, etc.).

If I'm wrong on any of this, I'd appreciate it if someone corrected me.

Hugs :heart:




ambigu said:
Yes exactly. And sometimes you see different sectors of mycelium on your plates that are not connected together. As I understand it, in the past it was thought that these different sectors were isolates (so all identical genetics), but thatโ€™s debunked info, since on agar and even in a fruiting body there are likely different compatible cultures working together.

Anyway, I never do it for the sake of isolation/decreasing variation. I prefer to select based on traits that are expressed in mushrooms instead of agar plates :shrug:



Thanks for shedding light on this matter ๐Ÿ™

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Re: Selective breeding for increased potency [Re: langten69] * 2
    #29687447 -

Gotta say, there might be something more like dog training in this hobby than we are aware of.

Mycelium is opportunistic, and builds its toolkit depending on what is available around it.  At the fruiting stage, all environmental factors will influence how they express themselves.

Mycelium are organic computers that are playing poker.

They have a psychology, and will change their plan on the go.

Let me demonstrate.

Eungella Transfer from an older clone plate, massive sectoring. This was on MEA pre-packaged.

.

I literally used a sterilized tweezer, and picked out one of those ropes at the bottom, and put it on a gnocchi water agar plate.

Way more nutrients in the gnocchi water agar



At first, the mycelium replicated its so far winning strategy of thick rhizo tendrils, deep exploration. It expanded, replicating shape on agar for a while, and then stopped.

The mycelium had received the signal, hey, here is good, this can be our new home.

And from there, it had a slower explosion of more tomentose, lazy, chill, less desperate mycelium symmetrically across the entire group.

This became the stuff I fruited.

It acts rationally. You know this, you've seen the slime molds design a metro system.


--------------------
I call them Huskies cause they Mush!


Huskies' Grimoire
The Official Wild Cubensis Thread
Easy Instant Pot Agar
Let's Talk Cowtek

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Re: Selective breeding for increased potency [Re: Huskies] * 1
    #29687458 -

You fruited the tomentose gnocchi myc? what's the thought behind picking that one? I thought the move was to run em a bit hungry so they hit the spawn harder and colonize aggressively, but I haven't done much comparison tbh between different modes like that. Curious how you think about it.


--------------------


.~`  ๐”… ๐”ž ๐”ค ๐”ข ๐”ฉ  ๐Ÿฅฏ  ๐”… ๐”ฆ ๐”ฑ ๐”ข ๐”ฐ  `~.
:salute: CAKE WARS III HAPPENING NOW :salute:

๐Ÿงช Castellani Preservation | ๐Ÿ”ฌ The Slidewich | โ˜ ๏ธ Touchless skull sterilizer | ๐Ÿ“ธ Agar plate scanner


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Re: Selective breeding for increased potency [Re: Huskies] * 1
    #29687464 -

Huskies said:
Gotta say, there might be something more like dog training in this hobby than we are aware of.

Mycelium is opportunistic, and builds its toolkit depending on what is available around it.  At the fruiting stage, all environmental factors will influence how they express themselves.

Mycelium are organic computers that are playing poker.

They have a psychology, and will change their plan on the go.

Let me demonstrate.

Eungella Transfer from an older clone plate, massive sectoring. This was on MEA pre-packaged.

.

I literally used a sterilized tweezer, and picked out one of those ropes at the bottom, and put it on a gnocchi water agar plate.

Way more nutrients in the gnocchi water agar



At first, the mycelium replicated its so far winning strategy of thick rhizo tendrils, deep exploration. It expanded, replicating shape on agar for a while, and then stopped.

The mycelium had received the signal, hey, here is good, this can be our new home.

And from there, it had a slower explosion of more tomentose, lazy, chill, less desperate mycelium symmetrically across the entire group.

This became the stuff I fruited.

It acts rationally. You know this, you've seen the slime molds design a metro system.



So, i have full faith that this is how they operate, basically like a mini civilization...

Once they find a "promised land" they basically move most of their energy away from their "military" (to fight contam) and relocate it into providing a more leisure filled and artistically sensitive (tomentose) culture

And if they see contam in the distance, they go right back into lean and fighting mode (rhizo)

Edited by langten69 (10/06/26 12:45 AM)

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Re: Selective breeding for increased potency [Re: Rasmodius] * 1
    #29687467 -

I guess since my agar recipes vary batch to batch, I deal with inconsistencies flexibly.

I knew the came from something incredibly rhizomorphic so I was very confident with fruiting that. I needed to know what that strand would yield.

Like, on that plate I saw it disarm and move to the suburbs if that makes sense.

edit: langten, we on the same page!

I think its more looking for resources..

Even on the original plate, you can see they were fine, but one side still went WTF let's see what is going on.

I had revitalized an old agar plate, so they were slowly digesting on a dying world, still had enough water though, lucky them.


--------------------
I call them Huskies cause they Mush!


Huskies' Grimoire
The Official Wild Cubensis Thread
Easy Instant Pot Agar
Let's Talk Cowtek

Edited by Huskies (10/06/26 12:48 AM)

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Re: Selective breeding for increased potency [Re: Huskies] * 4
    #29687666 -

Sectoring doesn't relate to genetics like we once thought. Each mycelial branch doesn't carry different chromosome sets than the other branches. Dikaryotic sectoring refers to the formation of "sectors" or distinct regions within a dikaryotic fungal mycelium where one of the two nuclear types is lost or excluded. This can happen through various mechanisms, often as a result of competitive interactions between the two genetically distinct nuclei, leading to a loss of genetic diversity within that sector. The result is a mycelial network with mixed and then potentially separated regions of the original two parental nuclear types.

I had no idea tomentose mycelium is artistically sensitive.

Edited by DV8DUG (10/06/26 06:08 AM)

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Re: Selective breeding for increased potency [Re: DV8DUG]
    #29687907 -

DV8DUG said:
Sectoring doesn't relate to genetics like we once thought. Each mycelial branch doesn't carry different chromosome sets than the other branches. Dikaryotic sectoring refers to the formation of "sectors" or distinct regions within a dikaryotic fungal mycelium where one of the two nuclear types is lost or excluded. This can happen through various mechanisms, often as a result of competitive interactions between the two genetically distinct nuclei, leading to a loss of genetic diversity within that sector. The result is a mycelial network with mixed and then potentially separated regions of the original two parental nuclear types.

I had no idea tomentose mycelium is artistically sensitive.



:rockon: thx for shedding light on the science to sectoring

And yeah I imagine the tomentose cultures having a well established met gala to enjoy in their free time with all the abundant nutes and such:lol:

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