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Offlinegorilla
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Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 62
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Breeding?
    #621362 - 04/28/02 03:08 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

is it possible to breed different strains of shrooms? if so i was thinking of a EQ/PR hybrid... with meaty stalks from the EQ and Stong Potentcy from the PR's...

i used to do this with weed.. so im just curious on if shrooms can do it too..


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OfflineIowa Rasta
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Re: Breeding? [Re: gorilla]
    #621413 - 04/28/02 04:22 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

um no impossible end of statement


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InvisibleREDnBLUEshrooms
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Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 49
Loc: Canada
Re: Breeding? [Re: Iowa Rasta]
    #623491 - 04/30/02 09:00 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

i'm would be interested in such a thing to.
are you sure that combinding two different spores, into one syringe, wont breed a new hybrid. thats how diffent species develop in the wild isnt it?


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Breeding? [Re: gorilla]
    #623496 - 04/30/02 09:10 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

not unless you knew how to splice genes
Mushrooms don't have sex so they can't swap genes so they can't be bred into different strains, stop being silly


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OfflineSkankfeet
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Registered: 02/24/02
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Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: Breeding? [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #623543 - 04/30/02 10:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not sure how it happens myself but if you took a culture started with a single spore and another culture started with a single spore and put them together ( they would need their privacy) on the same growth medium. hmmmm they might just might conspire to make hybrid baby mycelium that would grow up big and strong into a new species. If this were very easy we would have new hybrids popping up all the time. You would have no guarantee that the traits you desired would be included in the new species either and potency would probably be one of the first traits to suffer.
I could be totally wriong about this whole thing but think about it I could be right


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Offlinebluepoo
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Registered: 03/27/02
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Loc: europe
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Breeding? [Re: gorilla]
    #623642 - 05/01/02 12:47 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

heres how you would do it
take ayeringe water it down in a liter of water
now inoclate 200 agar dishis with 1-2 drops
you will find micelia that is very very cotony on about 3-5 plates and maybe 20 plates with cottony mycilia the ones with the very very cotony micilia that does not fruit have came from a sigle spore and can be mated with a nother breed mayed in the same way
now do this 50 or so times and you might have somthing close to what your looking for 49 out of 50 times youll have somthing not worth mentioningpoor fruit poor potence ect even with the 1 in 50 youll have to work on the strain to make it better than ether of the orenginal 2


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the above is what the litel leprecans told me to say and should be regarded as such
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InvisibleWakingUpLate
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Registered: 12/29/01
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Re: Breeding? [Re: gorilla]
    #623662 - 05/01/02 01:17 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Although I'm not quite far enough along to prove, disprove,
or even form an opinion on the cross-breeding debate,
I have seen a post by a very prominent member here at the
shroomery(a vendor) that stated he had a casing with one
strain in one end, a different strain in the other end, and what
seemed to be some kind of odd mushrooms in the middle that
seemed to be a cross of the two.
I've seen a pig with two heads, and a man with two pupils in
each eye, and a girl that could suck a golf ball through a
garden hose(well I saw the girl, everyone just says that
about her, but I think she started the rumor)
My point is, odder things have been known to happen.
Sorry but I'm always skeptical when someone says never.
I think my first divorce did that to me.
:peace:


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--------------------
The rest of those, who have gone before us,
cannot settle the unrest of those who follow.
(Finding Forrester)


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Breeding? [Re: gorilla]
    #623712 - 05/01/02 02:17 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yes it is possible and mushrooms do have sex. Of course you have to stick to the same species so technically crossing one strain of cubensis with another strain of cubensis isn't a hybrid. But it still can be used to generate novel strains.

Spores, like eggs and sperm, have only half the chromosomes of somatic cells. A singe spore germinates and grows a thin monokaryotic mycelium until it comes in contact with another strand of mycelium from a different spore. At the point of contact the two myceliums fuse and genes recombine into a dikaryotic mycelium that grows thicker and faster and is "hopefully" capable of fruiting.

The difficult part in breeding is isolating individual spores and growing out the monokaryotic mycelium. "The Mushroom Cultivator" (Stamets and Chilton) covers the spore diltution technique on pages 340-341.

There is another method of crossing strains that isn't as well understood or well known called anastomosis. This is mentioned on page 8 of "The Mushroom Cultivator". Anastomosis is where two dikaryotic myceliums fuse, exchange genetic material and form a new strain. This can sometimes be seen in casings containing two different strains where a few mushrooms seem to be intermediate between the two parent strains. Anastomosis can be done easily on agar where the two different fruiting strains are allowed to grow together in a single petri dish. Typically, a zone of incompatibility forms where the two strains meet. Even though it seems that the two strains are completely rejecting each other, genetic exchange is usually taking place. If a small wedge is taken from the incompatibility zone and culture out to fruiting, new strains often result mixed in with the parent strains. For some reason the crosses appear more abundantly in later flushes. It is suggested that strains very different in appearance are chosen for crossing by this method so that they are easily recognized when they occur.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Breeding? [Re: Workman]
    #623774 - 05/01/02 04:21 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

How possible or likely would it be to cross Ps. azures with another species that is easier to fruit, like cubensis for example.


Failing that, how could one go about breeding a better fruiting azure.

I've been thinking of trying to breed a more cold tolerent cubensis. My plan was to dump several spore prints from several different strains of cubensis into a jar of dextrose water, let it get started, and stick it in the freezer and see if anything survives.



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Anonymous

Re: Breeding? [Re: Workman]
    #623782 - 05/01/02 05:03 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Everything workman said, except!!!

When two monokaryotic hyphal strands fuse, it is a cytoplasmic fusion, not a nuclear fusion. Both haploid nuclei, one from each monokaryon exist side by side in the dikaryotic hyphae. They do not fuse, or exchange genes. They act independently of each other, but in unison, to continue growth and eventually fruiting. Only within the Basidium of a fertile fruiting body do these nuclei fuse to form a diploid nuclei. Which rapidly undergoes meiosis to form haploid nuclei again.
Recombination occursprimarily here, during meiosis. This is an actual mixing of genes, DNA.

Even during Anastomosis there is no Exchange of DNA between the haploid nuclei. It is an exchange of intact nuclei that occurs. Intact haploid nuclei. This is not recombination.

Problems with hybrids have been stated. False matings between partially compatible monokaryons. Anastomosis as well can lead to fusions of partial compatibility. Everything goes great, they fruit, but they are sterilie!!! The actual fusion between Haploid nuclei is not successful!!! Anastomosis can enable a fertile Dikaryon to hotwire a non fertile dikaryon into a fertile one, it can also just harness the feeding capabilities of a nonfertile dikaryon. Absorbing the nonfertile dikaryon into it's mycelial network, expanding the fertile dikaryons feeding range, but not producing fruits from those sections.

This can not be overstated enough. ANASTOMOSIS and MATING of MONOKARYONS is not a NUCLEAR FUSION. It only becomes complete if and when the haploid nuclei fuse during karyogamy within the basidia of mature fruitbodies. When you get spores from your hybrid, it was a successful CROSS.

Recombination at any stage other then karyogamy in basidiomycetes is pretty uncommon, but can occur. Parasexualism can and does occur in Basidiomycetes, but not to the extent that it occurs in fungi without a sexual cycle. Hyphae can contain more then one, two, or many nuclei. These nuclei can be diploid and haploid, even polyploids. Mitotic crossing over, recombination, can occur, but it is rare in Basidiomycetes. It occurs only with Diploid Nuclei. Since the majority of nuclei within the fertile dikaryon are haploid, it is rare.

Hybridization is the formation of a new strain from two strains. It can occur between monokaryons of two differing strains, or it can occur between dikaryons of two different strains, even between substrains of the same strain. In all instances, the donor nuclei remain seperate from eachother, but are housed under the same hyphal strand. They undergo mitosis individually and seperately.

Anastamosis can be viewed as a replacement process, not a fusion process. A dikaryon with two distinct haploid nuclei merges with another dikaryon with two distinct haploid nuclei. Disimilar nuclei (compatible)(partially compatible) are united.

PR(A1B1A2B2) runs into EQ( A1B1A2B2) and they undergo Anastamosis to form PR(A1B1)EQ(A2B2) or vice versus. The resulting Hybrid A1B1A2B2 is a new strain a PRxEQ. This Anastamosis is not limited to hybrids between different strains, and occurs with higher frequency within a STRAIN, between substrains. Hence the success with multispore innoculations!!!



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InvisibleWakingUpLate
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Registered: 12/29/01
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Re: Breeding? [Re: ]
    #623790 - 05/01/02 05:48 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ok, you guy are both smarter than me. There's plenty of
words that I can't even pronounce. Which makes it even
harder to say what I want to without sounding like a
dumbass, but I have to add this:
If you buy hybrid corn to plant in your garden, it produces
corn but they are sterile. If you have a pond  or lake stocked
with hybrid fish, they too, are sterile. In both cases the result
is an end product that is more robust than "normal" but is
useless as far as future generations is concerned.
For these "simple minded" reasons, I just assumed that a
hybrid of anything, is sterile, and basically a dead end road,
as far as producing offspring.
Now please don't flame me for being stupid, unless it might
make you feel better, then it's ok. I am truely humbled by being
in the presence of great minds, and appreciate everyone's
input, even if they don't always agree.
Now I have to go look some words up. Maybe I'll be  a little
smarter tomorrow(actually later today, up all night again).
:peace:
Free Spore Ring
 


--------------------
The rest of those, who have gone before us,
cannot settle the unrest of those who follow.
(Finding Forrester)


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Breeding? [Re: ]
    #623989 - 05/01/02 01:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Teonan is correct. Individual cells of mushroom mycelia contain two nuclei. I left out a great deal of information in my simplified post to make it more readable for the nonmycologist. But Teonan makes an excellent point that I should have included. You really need to get spores from your new "hybrid" in order to achieve recombination. I misstated that recombination happens when two monokaryotic strains combine.


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Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification :amanitajar:


Edited by Workman (05/01/02 01:19 PM)


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Breeding? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #623996 - 05/01/02 01:29 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Interspecies crosses are not possible using normal breeding methods. It may be possible to fuse monokaryotic protoplasts (nake cells with the cell walls removed) of cubensis with azures. But that would take some specialized equipment and a lot of time.

In order to just breed a better azure using selection you would have to succeed in getting at least minimal fruiting indoors with viable spores resulting for further selection.

The dumping of several spore prints into nutrients and freezing might result in something. But since you won't be growing cubes in the freezer, how about just selecting the fastest growing mycelium at 45F?


--------------------
Research funded by the patrons of
The Spore Works
Exotic Spore Supply
Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification :amanitajar:


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Breeding? [Re: Workman]
    #624135 - 05/01/02 04:50 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I guess a good question to ask would be why are there no cubes in northern Mississippi. I just assumed it was because cubes weren't resistant to freezing, which occurs more often up here, than it does furthur south.My guess was that it grows just fine during the warmer months, but then dies out over the winter. THat's why I wanted to breed a freeze tolerent strain.

What would be a good strain to try to naturalize in this area?



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Breeding? [Re: Workman]
    #624139 - 05/01/02 05:00 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

> Individual cells of mushroom mycelia contain two nuclei.

This should read two or more. When knots start to form there can be upwards of 30 or more nuclei in a single cell.


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Offlinefrancisco
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Re: Breeding? [Re: WakingUpLate]
    #624247 - 05/01/02 07:44 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

They may be sterile from a sexual repodeuctive standpoint,but cloning the hybrid works.


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Anonymous

Re: Breeding? [Re: Seuss]
    #624439 - 05/02/02 12:13 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

This was stated in my post. Individual hyphae can contain many nuclei. The point that was being expressed was that each nuclei remains intact, and no genetic recombination occurs between them. Only in the Basidium does Karyogomy occur, and when this happens the number of nuclei is always reduced to TWO just prior to fusion.
Only occasionaly in sexually reproducing mushrooms, does recombination occur outside of the basidium.


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Anonymous

Re: Breeding? [Re: WakingUpLate]
    #624470 - 05/02/02 12:47 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The majority of hybrids are not sterile, even in the plant world. Take MJ for example. All of these hybrids, between strains, are not sterile. They just aren't true breeding. If You start with strain A and cross it with strain B, the seeds produced from that cross are the hybrid. But if these hybrid plants from the seeds, breed and produce their own seeds, you wind up with a bunch of variability. You have to continue to breed the offspring over and over for several generations before you can get any kind of stability.
Crosses between two different genera, or even between two different species usually results in sterile hybrids. Both with fish, and with plants, and will most likely be sterile with mushrooms as well.
The hybrids I am referring too, are within a species of mushrooms, and between strains, or substrains.
If you eat corn, you are eating seeds, so the hybrid was not sterile. It needs to be pollinated by like cultivars, or the resulting fruit will not be true to type. If you let the fruit mature, the resulting seeds will grow, LOW GERMINATION RATES and LOSS OF UNIFORMITY OCCURS. Corn is picked prior to seed viability for eating. Hybrids are breed for EATING qualities, Yield, shelf life, etc....
The actual hybrid is what you are planting, so it wasn't sterile either. Manipulating Ploidy levels can result in sterility, fruits without seeds, fish that can't breed.




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Anonymous

Re: Breeding? [Re: francisco]
    #624477 - 05/02/02 12:56 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yes cloning can maintain a sterile, fruiting hybrid. I wasn't trying to talk anybody out of trying to make hybrids, I actually think it is a great idea!!!


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Anonymous

Re: Breeding? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #624488 - 05/02/02 01:18 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Cubensis just can' t complete it's lifecycle in your climate. It can't go from spore to spore to spore. It can definetly go from spawn to spore with a little help.


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