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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Enlil]
    #29683973 -

Based


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Time is nature's way of making sure that everything doesn't happen at once.

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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Asante]
    #29684271 -

Asante said:
Imagine you gave Iran a nuke and the next day Tel Aviv went up in a mushroom cloud.

Its not that simple.


One part of it is simple. Tehran would be destroyed the same day, and Israel would still have a large supply of plutonium weapons in reserve.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Enlil]
    #29684291 -

Enlil said:
Awebig Throy said:
Folks really like to reduce the 2nd Amendment to the 2nd half of it...  They like to forget that it refers to having a well regulated militia
.


That part is the reason for the amendment.  The amendment still clearly defines a right of "the people."  It isn't a right just for militia members.  It's a right for all people. The idea was that a militia can form as needed, but only if the people are already armed.


All throughout the Constitution and other documents from that time "the people" is used to describe a collective political community and "person"(or other description) is used when they wanted to signify an individual.

You could make the argument that gun control should be left up to state and county/municipal governments rather than the federal government because of the 2nd amendment...but saying the 2nd amendment gives individual rights which trump the right of states and localities to regulate them is more than a stretch, it's nonsense.

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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Holybullshit] * 2
    #29684315 -

At the time of the drafting, of course the 2nd amendment had no effect on state law.  That changed with the incorporation doctrine brought on by the 14th amendment.

As to your notion that "the people" does not indicate an individual right, I assume that you believe the same to be true about the protections of the first amendment which also uses that phrase?

Same with the fourth amendment? 

So you believe that "the people" meaning "the collective political community" has a right to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures, but you as an individual do not?  The collective political community has a right to petition the government for redress, but you and I don't have that right?


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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Enlil]
    #29684635 -

The fourth amendment specifically says persons and houses.

The 2nd amendment doesn't say the right of the people to keep and bare arms on their persons or in their houses shall not be infringed.

As far as the right to petition the government for redress of grievances the 11th amendment specifies citizens and technically it just says Congress shall not prohibit it, the courts have clearly felt differently(sovreign immunity).

Here, have a look...

https://harvardlawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/vol126_the_people_in_the_constitution.pdf

Edited by Holybullshit (10/03/26 09:14 AM)

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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Holybullshit] * 2
    #29684641 -

Either you're intentionally making intellectually dishonest argument in an attempt to win or you just aren't paying attention.  This is the text of the Fourth Amendment:

Quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized


The right is clearly specified as being a right "of the people."  It's not a right of persons.  It's a right of the people (individuals) to be secure in their persons (bodies), houses (homes), papers (documents), and effects (belongings). 

As to the Second Amendment, the text is pretty clear:

Quote:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Again, the right is held by "the people."  The same people who hold the right  under the fourth amendment.  That right is the right to keep (own) and bear (possess) arms (weapons).  What else would "keep and bear" mean?

I don't know what you're trying to say about the 11th amendment.  You seem confused.  You certainly haven't read that law review article you linked.



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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Enlil]
    #29684644 -

https://harvardlawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/vol126_the_people_in_the_constitution.pdf

The Eleventh Amendment and the First Amendment's Right to Petition the Government for Redress of Grievances are fundamentally connected through the concept of sovereign immunity.

In pretty much every example of the people extending to individuals there exists supporting and specifying language at some point, and both English common law and contemporary state and local law to draw from for context of meaning. None such exists of the former for the 2nd amendment, it only says well regulated militia.

Quote:
The next interpretive technique is “intratextualism,” which entails using other relevant portions of the same legal text to inform the meaning of a word or phrase. As Professor Akhil Amar has demon-strated, the Supreme Court used this interpretive method (among others) in several seminal cases...


And "time, place, and manner" laws regulating firearms were common as well as laws limiting the amount of gunpowder that could be stored in private homes. None of these were challenged on a 2nd amendment basis at the time...

Why do you think these laws were not overturned by the 2nd amendment if they intended it to be as sweeping as you claim?

Edited by Holybullshit (10/03/26 09:36 AM)

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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Holybullshit]
    #29684646 -

Link it a dozen times...it doesn't say what you think it says, and it's obvious you haven't read it.


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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Enlil]
    #29684656 -

• "The People": Acts as a collective term for the political community or public. It is used in provisions highlighting popular sovereignty or collective rights (e.g., the Preamble, First Amendment, and Second Amendment).

• "Person" or "Persons": Singular terms used throughout the text when the Constitution intends to apply rules, due process, or criminal protections to an individual human being, regardless of whether they are part of the political collective. For example, the Fifth and Sixth Amendments use "person" and "accused" for individual legal protections.

https://lawliberty.org/we-the-people-of-the-united-states/

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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Holybullshit] * 1
    #29684657 -

You're so close...

Holybullshit said:
Person" or "Persons": Singular terms used throughout the text when the Constitution intends to apply rules, due process, or criminal protections to an individual human being, regardless of whether they are part of the political collective.


The bolded part is the important part.  Person(s) refers to every human being on the planet. "the people" refers to everyone who is "part of the political collective."  Both are individual rights.  One is a right inherent just by being a human.  Another is a right derived from being an American.  Whether that sticks is a question to be resolved by SCOTUS

There is no rational read of the 2nd amendment other than as an individual right. 

Your point about state laws that existed at the time of the constitution being ratified is irrelevant.  The bill of rights did not apply to state law at the time. State's had official religions, too, and the first didn't apply to stop that.



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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Enlil]
    #29684659 -

No, it's not... because the 2nd amendment doesn't say persons.

The point of the text you just bolded is why undocumented immigrants are still entitled to due process...do you think the 2A applies to undocumented immigrants?

Quote:
The bill of rights did not apply to state law at the time. State's had official religions, too, and the first didn't apply to stop that.


And those laws were challenged and reversed! That's my whole point.

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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Holybullshit]
    #29684663 -

Actually, I do believe it applies to noncitizens.  Eventually, SCOTUS may clarify that.


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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Enlil]
    #29684669 -

Because it doesn't say persons is why it doesn't apply to every individual! It applies to the political body...which by using intratextualism we can infer to be militia.

There is nothing in the Constitution which indicates the 2A applies to anyone beyond a well regulated militia. So states and localities should be allowed to define what that is...gun rights people shouldn't be able to use the 2A to overturn gun control passed by cities and states...they certainly didn't in the 18th and 19th centuries. And the fact that it took over 200 years to begin making that argument should give you some idea of what the contemporaries of the time thought the 2A meant.

In one sentence you claim we the people means every individual, in the next you say persons does. You aren't making sense.

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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Holybullshit]
    #29684671 -

They both mean individuals.  The only question is whether it's "every individual" or not.  I personally believe both mean every individual.  Unfortunately, SCOTUS disagrees with me on some points.

The Fourth says "the right of the people" but applies to non-citizens, so I see no reason the 2nd shouldn't.


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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Enlil]
    #29684749 -

I watched too many cowboy movies, maybe?  I honestly think felons should vote and have a right to own guns.  Mostly cause I think self defense is what is conveyed in the second amendment even if the word self defense is not written.  As far as the voting, we might have had different legislation (war on drugs for one) if felons could vote.

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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: gww]
    #29684793 -

Pretty sure obama made it so felons can vote... firearms is a different story


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hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: ashfiken] * 1
    #29684821 -

I am pretty sure you are wrong on that and that it is more state by state with the last one to open it up being Florida that I remember.  Though the republicans played intimidation games there.

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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: ashfiken] * 2
    #29684881 -

ashfiken said:
Pretty sure obama made it so felons can vote... firearms is a different story


Nah. You made all that up


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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: ashfiken] * 1
    #29684894 -

ashfiken said:
Pretty sure obama made it so felons can vote... firearms is a different story


I find it bizarre that felons can't vote.  It makes sense though that firearms can't vote.

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Re: Just give Iran a nuke already [Re: Enlil]
    #29684914 -

Enlil said:
ashfiken said:
Pretty sure obama made it so felons can vote... firearms is a different story


Nah. You made all that up


Ok cool so its state based.
Pretty much fucking half of states allow felons to vote after completing their sentence.
Half, it says, "may not restore".

Im a felon
I can vote.
Its not as big an issue as what was stated, which is why i spoke up.
Thanks "make up" girl lilly


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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