dinosaurs said:

theres always money for war but never money to help the poor.  we can't afford healthcare but we can afford another endless war, this time with iran, that is accomplishing nothing but killing people and affording the trump administration their weekly opportunities for market manipulation.


Here’s how much the Trump Kids have made because of the presidency

remember this shit when you're paying $4+ per gallon for gas for no good reason, when you're paying $9 per pound for ground beef that was $4 at the start of last year, when you pay your new higher electric/water bills, and when you pay tariffs on random shit because reality has hurt the president's feelings. 

rocketing prices on everything, crumbling infrastructure, and more republican forever wars.  they are getting FILTHY rich off FUCKING you and me while telling us that as a country, we don't have the money for the basics.  your healthcare disappears or increases in price while motherfuckers like mitch mcconnell dont come to work for 2+ months, yet retains his job and lifelong top notch healthcare that you pay for. 

but we don't have money for healthcare for you plebs.  but billionaires need a tax break and also give us more money for iran/israel and ICE.

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dinosaurs said:

so it sounds like you're making an "ineffective support" argument which I'd be more inclined to entertain were it not for the sharp and marked negative impacts observed immediately when these programs were cut by this administration.

the fact is that most of the social support systems in the USA are hobbled to begin with, and stigmatized by the segment of our society that acts like every dollar not being spent specifically on them is being wasted.  we entertain half-assed solutions to real problems and use their failure to argue against actual solutions.

just on the topic of healthcare, the people of the USA collectively spend multiples of what it would cost to put a universal healthcare system in place.  not only would universal healthcare give everyone access to doctors, everyone would have EQUAL access to medical treatment.  ever been party to a discussion about whether has enough money to survive a diagnosis?  it's a pretty uniquely American experience.

but for 2 decades now, republicans have told us that we can't afford universal healthcare, while at the same time spending billions/trillions of dollars on wars, tax breaks for the rich, and giving ICE a larger budget than many foreign militaries.

thats just one example.  we're told we don't have the money for a lot of shit while we always have money for bombs and israel.  what we're doing right now would be like you taking a third mortgage out on your house so you could pay to renovate all of your neighbors homes.

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AlChemicalResearch said:

dinosaurs said:

so it sounds like you're making an "ineffective support" argument which I'd be more inclined to entertain were it not for the sharp and marked negative impacts observed immediately when these programs were cut by this administration.

the fact is that most of the social support systems in the USA are hobbled to begin with, and stigmatized by the segment of our society that acts like every dollar not being spent specifically on them is being wasted.  we entertain half-assed solutions to real problems and use their failure to argue against actual solutions.

just on the topic of healthcare, the people of the USA collectively spend multiples of what it would cost to put a universal healthcare system in place.  not only would universal healthcare give everyone access to doctors, everyone would have EQUAL access to medical treatment.  ever been party to a discussion about whether has enough money to survive a diagnosis?  it's a pretty uniquely American experience.

but for 2 decades now, republicans have told us that we can't afford universal healthcare, while at the same time spending billions/trillions of dollars on wars, tax breaks for the rich, and giving ICE a larger budget than many foreign militaries.

thats just one example.  we're told we don't have the money for a lot of shit while we always have money for bombs and israel.  what we're doing right now would be like you taking a third mortgage out on your house so you could pay to renovate all of your neighbors homes.

---

I'd be more inclined to entertain your argument for the sharp and marked negative effects of cutting funding to these programs if it wasn't for the fact that it's more so the media decided to report on a handful of specific stories that may or may not be from cutting this programs specifically. If the media did it's job correctly, you would see those stories every day in the media, because those examples would in fact happen every day regardless of USAID/federal funding or not. So for the media to start focusing on it to highlight how bad DOGE was, imo, dishonest and not reflective of the greater reality of the situation. The average lifespan in Africa was already lower than it was during the peak of the AIDS era during the 2010s due to them open air burning landfill waste to get copper and other metals, and then living in the landfills next to the burn piles and raising farm animals there and then eating the farm animals. They were making like 30,000$ a month though, some of them. Corporate media didn't report on that though. Vice did though, when it was a solid news organization. Corporate media also doesn't report on Africans using mosquito nets for fishing nets, which capture all the juvenile fishes and eggs that normally fishing nets don't catch, leading to a collapse of fishing ecosystems and subsequent starvation. They will report on a modest increase in malaria due to USAID not giving out mosquito nets, that weren't even being used as mosquito nets to begin with. I mean you KNOW the media is corrupt and you STILL listen to it when it confirms your viewpoint. That is the magic of telecommunications.

I would argue we already have universal healthcare in the USA. If you have an immediate need for treatment, you'll get treated and it's up to you to pay your bill. It's illegal for debt collectors to come after you, after 7 years it gets kicked off your credit score, if you pay a small amount over time, you can argue with their internal debt collection system that you have a pattern of payment, can't pay the entire bill, and it gets kicked off. Yes you can't do this for more serious, chronic issues. And I don't want to defend the US healthcare system, as its bloated and corrupt, even if you can get quality care sometimes. But if you look at other countries with universal healthcare, if you have one of these serious chronic issues, you either go through government run systems and will most likely die cause they're overburdened. OR you deal in a quasi private healthcare system that is also expensive, albeit not as expensive as the USA, but is in no way government healthcare. Universal healthcare in the USA would be a failure cause most people in the USA are fat and entitled.

But yea, we should stop sending money to Israel ASAP and probably get the NATO countries to start paying more for NATO instead of just relying on the USA to pay for everything, since the entire point of that alliance is to protect them from Russia. The USA isn't really in danger from Russia.

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dinosaurs said:

AlChemicalResearch said:

dinosaurs said:

so it sounds like you're making an "ineffective support" argument which I'd be more inclined to entertain were it not for the sharp and marked negative impacts observed immediately when these programs were cut by this administration.

the fact is that most of the social support systems in the USA are hobbled to begin with, and stigmatized by the segment of our society that acts like every dollar not being spent specifically on them is being wasted.  we entertain half-assed solutions to real problems and use their failure to argue against actual solutions.

just on the topic of healthcare, the people of the USA collectively spend multiples of what it would cost to put a universal healthcare system in place.  not only would universal healthcare give everyone access to doctors, everyone would have EQUAL access to medical treatment.  ever been party to a discussion about whether has enough money to survive a diagnosis?  it's a pretty uniquely American experience.

but for 2 decades now, republicans have told us that we can't afford universal healthcare, while at the same time spending billions/trillions of dollars on wars, tax breaks for the rich, and giving ICE a larger budget than many foreign militaries.

thats just one example.  we're told we don't have the money for a lot of shit while we always have money for bombs and israel.  what we're doing right now would be like you taking a third mortgage out on your house so you could pay to renovate all of your neighbors homes.

---

I'd be more inclined to entertain your argument for the sharp and marked negative effects of cutting funding to these programs if it wasn't for the fact that it's more so the media decided to report on a handful of specific stories that may or may not be from cutting this programs specifically. If the media did it's job correctly, you would see those stories every day in the media, because those examples would in fact happen every day regardless of USAID/federal funding or not. So for the media to start focusing on it to highlight how bad DOGE was, imo, dishonest and not reflective of the greater reality of the situation. The average lifespan in Africa was already lower than it was during the peak of the AIDS era during the 2010s due to them open air burning landfill waste to get copper and other metals, and then living in the landfills next to the burn piles and raising farm animals there and then eating the farm animals. They were making like 30,000$ a month though, some of them. Corporate media didn't report on that though. Vice did though, when it was a solid news organization. Corporate media also doesn't report on Africans using mosquito nets for fishing nets, which capture all the juvenile fishes and eggs that normally fishing nets don't catch, leading to a collapse of fishing ecosystems and subsequent starvation. They will report on a modest increase in malaria due to USAID not giving out mosquito nets, that weren't even being used as mosquito nets to begin with. I mean you KNOW the media is corrupt and you STILL listen to it when it confirms your viewpoint. That is the magic of telecommunications.

I would argue we already have universal healthcare in the USA. If you have an immediate need for treatment, you'll get treated and it's up to you to pay your bill. It's illegal for debt collectors to come after you, after 7 years it gets kicked off your credit score, if you pay a small amount over time, you can argue with their internal debt collection system that you have a pattern of payment, can't pay the entire bill, and it gets kicked off. Yes you can't do this for more serious, chronic issues. And I don't want to defend the US healthcare system, as its bloated and corrupt, even if you can get quality care sometimes. But if you look at other countries with universal healthcare, if you have one of these serious chronic issues, you either go through government run systems and will most likely die cause they're overburdened. OR you deal in a quasi private healthcare system that is also expensive, albeit not as expensive as the USA, but is in no way government healthcare. Universal healthcare in the USA would be a failure cause most people in the USA are fat and entitled.

But yea, we should stop sending money to Israel ASAP and probably get the NATO countries to start paying more for NATO instead of just relying on the USA to pay for everything, since the entire point of that alliance is to protect them from Russia. The USA isn't really in danger from Russia.

---

lol what the fuck are you talking about?  being free to go into medical debt is not universal healthcare, and even if we entertained that bat-shit crazy assertion, that freedom only extends to emergency care.  without insurance you will not be treated for things that may cause ongoing quality of life issues or even worsen into disabling or life threatening illness.  and again even with insurance you're subject to a gradient of healthcare.  the warehouse worker isn't going to get the same cancer treatment as lets say a sitting senator whose healthcare is covered for life by the American taxpayer.

the vast majority of the civilized world has figured this out, but the USA is more interested in using that money for pointless wars.  so not only are we not spending the money on ourselves, we're going further into debt for *nothing.*4

---

I have family in Europe. My aunt died cause she had cancer. She started having symptoms, scheduled a doctors appointment. It was a year wait. She saw the doctor. Yes, you have cancer. We recommend chemo as soon as possible. First round of chemo, 14 month wait. Conclusion: it seemed promising, but not cancer free. Recommend 2nd round. 18 months is the next available appointment. She died waiting for the 2nd round of chemo. It's pretty common in areas with universal healthcare to offload to private health care systems to have super long wait times before being able to see the doctor, in which there is a good chance you will die if you have a chronic condition. It is preferable to be able to game a corrupt and dysfunctional system to get better access to care. Yes, if you are well off you will have the same standard of care as the not so well off (my aunt was pretty well off). And that standard of care is kind of not so good.

Would you rather have this or a 10,000$ hospital bill? Yea its 2 shitty options, but that's where we're at.


In the UK because of universal healthcare not being able to keep up with the demand, there is an integration of private healthcare into the healthcare system. With the result of having a 2-tiered healthcare system. So if your goal is to have equal access for health care, universal health care may be able to provide this for 5-10 years, but not ad infinitum. So what happens is, the rich can afford good care (like it already is) and now the government is bloating with administrators and you're paying for it with increased taxes (which is basically already occurring just with insurance companies jacking up rates instead of the government jacking up taxes).

https://www.heec.co.uk/resource/private-health-care-the-emerging-two-tier-system/

Similar situations can be found in virtually all countries that have universal healthcare.

I'm not defending the modern healthcare system. It's not good and needs to be reformed. But the fact of the matter is pharmacological research is WILDLY expensive to be done right. For every line of research that works there may be 1000s that didn't work, but the cost still was fronted. I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that universal healthcare isn't working and won't work.

And I'm not even getting into the increase in fraud opportunities that would arise with government funded health care in the USA. I have a feeling it would be astronomically higher than in European countries.

dinosaurs said:

yet despite your anecdotal data, there isn't a person from a country with universal healthcare that would trade it for the bullshit the USA has.  the nice thing about universal healthcare is that it sets the baseline and makes that available to everyone.  if you want to subscribe to your "an open market is universal healthcare" (if thats the way to summarize the wack shit you typed out unironically) then your relative could have paid their way to supplemental care.

we give senators etc top notch healthcare for life for a reason.  we've implicitly declared the importance of good healthcare, just not for the plebs.  there are *millions* of Americans that deal with medical conditions that adversely impact their quality of life because they can't afford the out of pocket costs to get medical care.  thats unacceptable when our politicians have the balls to refer to the USA as the best country on the planet.

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Quote:

yet despite your anecdotal data, there isn't a person from a country with universal healthcare that would trade it for the bullshit the USA has

---

AlChemicalResearch said:

dinosaurs said:

AlChemicalResearch said:

dinosaurs said:

so it sounds like you're making an "ineffective support" argument which I'd be more inclined to entertain were it not for the sharp and marked negative impacts observed immediately when these programs were cut by this administration.

the fact is that most of the social support systems in the USA are hobbled to begin with, and stigmatized by the segment of our society that acts like every dollar not being spent specifically on them is being wasted.  we entertain half-assed solutions to real problems and use their failure to argue against actual solutions.

just on the topic of healthcare, the people of the USA collectively spend multiples of what it would cost to put a universal healthcare system in place.  not only would universal healthcare give everyone access to doctors, everyone would have EQUAL access to medical treatment.  ever been party to a discussion about whether has enough money to survive a diagnosis?  it's a pretty uniquely American experience.

but for 2 decades now, republicans have told us that we can't afford universal healthcare, while at the same time spending billions/trillions of dollars on wars, tax breaks for the rich, and giving ICE a larger budget than many foreign militaries.

thats just one example.  we're told we don't have the money for a lot of shit while we always have money for bombs and israel.  what we're doing right now would be like you taking a third mortgage out on your house so you could pay to renovate all of your neighbors homes.

---

I'd be more inclined to entertain your argument for the sharp and marked negative effects of cutting funding to these programs if it wasn't for the fact that it's more so the media decided to report on a handful of specific stories that may or may not be from cutting this programs specifically. If the media did it's job correctly, you would see those stories every day in the media, because those examples would in fact happen every day regardless of USAID/federal funding or not. So for the media to start focusing on it to highlight how bad DOGE was, imo, dishonest and not reflective of the greater reality of the situation. The average lifespan in Africa was already lower than it was during the peak of the AIDS era during the 2010s due to them open air burning landfill waste to get copper and other metals, and then living in the landfills next to the burn piles and raising farm animals there and then eating the farm animals. They were making like 30,000$ a month though, some of them. Corporate media didn't report on that though. Vice did though, when it was a solid news organization. Corporate media also doesn't report on Africans using mosquito nets for fishing nets, which capture all the juvenile fishes and eggs that normally fishing nets don't catch, leading to a collapse of fishing ecosystems and subsequent starvation. They will report on a modest increase in malaria due to USAID not giving out mosquito nets, that weren't even being used as mosquito nets to begin with. I mean you KNOW the media is corrupt and you STILL listen to it when it confirms your viewpoint. That is the magic of telecommunications.

I would argue we already have universal healthcare in the USA. If you have an immediate need for treatment, you'll get treated and it's up to you to pay your bill. It's illegal for debt collectors to come after you, after 7 years it gets kicked off your credit score, if you pay a small amount over time, you can argue with their internal debt collection system that you have a pattern of payment, can't pay the entire bill, and it gets kicked off. Yes you can't do this for more serious, chronic issues. And I don't want to defend the US healthcare system, as its bloated and corrupt, even if you can get quality care sometimes. But if you look at other countries with universal healthcare, if you have one of these serious chronic issues, you either go through government run systems and will most likely die cause they're overburdened. OR you deal in a quasi private healthcare system that is also expensive, albeit not as expensive as the USA, but is in no way government healthcare. Universal healthcare in the USA would be a failure cause most people in the USA are fat and entitled.

But yea, we should stop sending money to Israel ASAP and probably get the NATO countries to start paying more for NATO instead of just relying on the USA to pay for everything, since the entire point of that alliance is to protect them from Russia. The USA isn't really in danger from Russia.

---

lol what the fuck are you talking about?  being free to go into medical debt is not universal healthcare, and even if we entertained that bat-shit crazy assertion, that freedom only extends to emergency care.  without insurance you will not be treated for things that may cause ongoing quality of life issues or even worsen into disabling or life threatening illness.  and again even with insurance you're subject to a gradient of healthcare.  the warehouse worker isn't going to get the same cancer treatment as lets say a sitting senator whose healthcare is covered for life by the American taxpayer.

the vast majority of the civilized world has figured this out, but the USA is more interested in using that money for pointless wars.  so not only are we not spending the money on ourselves, we're going further into debt for *nothing.*4

---

I have family in Europe. My aunt died cause she had cancer. She started having symptoms, scheduled a doctors appointment. It was a year wait. She saw the doctor. Yes, you have cancer. We recommend chemo as soon as possible. First round of chemo, 14 month wait. Conclusion: it seemed promising, but not cancer free. Recommend 2nd round. 18 months is the next available appointment. She died waiting for the 2nd round of chemo. It's pretty common in areas with universal healthcare to offload to private health care systems to have super long wait times before being able to see the doctor, in which there is a good chance you will die if you have a chronic condition. It is preferable to be able to game a corrupt and dysfunctional system to get better access to care. Yes, if you are well off you will have the same standard of care as the not so well off (my aunt was pretty well off). And that standard of care is kind of not so good.

---

Psilynut2 said:

Quote:

yet despite your anecdotal data, there isn't a person from a country with universal healthcare that would trade it for the bullshit the USA has

---

  I wouldn't trade my healthcare for what they have in Europe . The integrated efficiency you get with a place like Kaiser is hard to beat .  Less than a month from the time they found  melanoma behind my ear to having surgery and that was only because it was around Christmas . It could have happened in just two weeks they don't fuck around much .

---

Quote:

glad you were in a position to afford that or that you had insurance that could.  many can't

---

Quote:

FLASHBACK: Tim Walz promised to return HALF of Minnesota’s budget surplus if voters re-elected him, saying he could do it in a “15-minute” special session.

He promised $1k per person, $2k per family.

Democrats took control, but the checks never came.

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Dekozn said:

AlChemicalResearch said:

dinosaurs said:

AlChemicalResearch said:

I'd be more inclined to entertain your argument for the sharp and marked negative effects of cutting funding to these programs if it wasn't for the fact that it's more so the media decided to report on a handful of specific stories that may or may not be from cutting this programs specifically. If the media did it's job correctly, you would see those stories every day in the media, because those examples would in fact happen every day regardless of USAID/federal funding or not. So for the media to start focusing on it to highlight how bad DOGE was, imo, dishonest and not reflective of the greater reality of the situation. The average lifespan in Africa was already lower than it was during the peak of the AIDS era during the 2010s due to them open air burning landfill waste to get copper and other metals, and then living in the landfills next to the burn piles and raising farm animals there and then eating the farm animals. They were making like 30,000$ a month though, some of them. Corporate media didn't report on that though. Vice did though, when it was a solid news organization. Corporate media also doesn't report on Africans using mosquito nets for fishing nets, which capture all the juvenile fishes and eggs that normally fishing nets don't catch, leading to a collapse of fishing ecosystems and subsequent starvation. They will report on a modest increase in malaria due to USAID not giving out mosquito nets, that weren't even being used as mosquito nets to begin with. I mean you KNOW the media is corrupt and you STILL listen to it when it confirms your viewpoint. That is the magic of telecommunications.

I would argue we already have universal healthcare in the USA. If you have an immediate need for treatment, you'll get treated and it's up to you to pay your bill. It's illegal for debt collectors to come after you, after 7 years it gets kicked off your credit score, if you pay a small amount over time, you can argue with their internal debt collection system that you have a pattern of payment, can't pay the entire bill, and it gets kicked off. Yes you can't do this for more serious, chronic issues. And I don't want to defend the US healthcare system, as its bloated and corrupt, even if you can get quality care sometimes. But if you look at other countries with universal healthcare, if you have one of these serious chronic issues, you either go through government run systems and will most likely die cause they're overburdened. OR you deal in a quasi private healthcare system that is also expensive, albeit not as expensive as the USA, but is in no way government healthcare. Universal healthcare in the USA would be a failure cause most people in the USA are fat and entitled.

But yea, we should stop sending money to Israel ASAP and probably get the NATO countries to start paying more for NATO instead of just relying on the USA to pay for everything, since the entire point of that alliance is to protect them from Russia. The USA isn't really in danger from Russia.

---

lol what the fuck are you talking about?  being free to go into medical debt is not universal healthcare, and even if we entertained that bat-shit crazy assertion, that freedom only extends to emergency care.  without insurance you will not be treated for things that may cause ongoing quality of life issues or even worsen into disabling or life threatening illness.  and again even with insurance you're subject to a gradient of healthcare.  the warehouse worker isn't going to get the same cancer treatment as lets say a sitting senator whose healthcare is covered for life by the American taxpayer.

the vast majority of the civilized world has figured this out, but the USA is more interested in using that money for pointless wars.  so not only are we not spending the money on ourselves, we're going further into debt for *nothing.*4

---

I have family in Europe. My aunt died cause she had cancer. She started having symptoms, scheduled a doctors appointment. It was a year wait. She saw the doctor. Yes, you have cancer. We recommend chemo as soon as possible. First round of chemo, 14 month wait. Conclusion: it seemed promising, but not cancer free. Recommend 2nd round. 18 months is the next available appointment. She died waiting for the 2nd round of chemo. It's pretty common in areas with universal healthcare to offload to private health care systems to have super long wait times before being able to see the doctor, in which there is a good chance you will die if you have a chronic condition. It is preferable to be able to game a corrupt and dysfunctional system to get better access to care. Yes, if you are well off you will have the same standard of care as the not so well off (my aunt was pretty well off). And that standard of care is kind of not so good.

---

Where and when was this? I find this hard to believe, the EU (note EU and not Europe) has decent medical care. Yes during and right after covid it was a mess with long waiting periods depending on the ailment. But 1 year for a doctors appointment is ridiculous. I had to see doctor 2 months ago, went online and scheduled an appointment the next day, needed an echo for my leg, appointment was 2 days later and it wasn't an emergency just some mild discomfort. costed me 25 euro.

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dinosaurs said:

Psilynut2 said:

Quote:

yet despite your anecdotal data, there isn't a person from a country with universal healthcare that would trade it for the bullshit the USA has

---

  I wouldn't trade my healthcare for what they have in Europe . The integrated efficiency you get with a place like Kaiser is hard to beat .  Less than a month from the time they found  melanoma behind my ear to having surgery and that was only because it was around Christmas . It could have happened in just two weeks they don't fuck around much .

---

glad you were in a position to afford that or that you had insurance that could.  many can't.

PS europe/etc has specialists you can pay too.  there's nothing that says universal healthcare has to put medical institutes out of business. european countries score the same or better than the USA on the qol index, and their life expectancy is as long or longer than Americans (which is trending downward, btw).  if their healthcare systems were less effective that would be borne out in the data.  so while keeping the people equivalently happy and alive, their systems cost the average person next to nothing in our of pocket expenses, and every single person has access to fundamental healthcare without going bankrupt or existing in a system with inherently graduated care depending on how much money you have, whether you have insurance, and if you have insurance, whether that insurance will cover your needs.

for my own anecdotal data, I personally knew someone that got cancer, got treatment through their insurance afforded via their employment, their treatment kept them out of work to such extent that their role was eliminated, they lost insurance, and died early/unnecessarily because treatment options became unattainable. 

last, you can travel anywhere in the world for specialized care if you have the money.  this is about the people that dont.  poor people deserve to life and have a quality of life as much as anyone else, esp in this "greatest country on earth" as we pass 40 trillion dollars of debt with nothing much to show for it.

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christopera said:

His point was simple. Refusing to pay is not the same as universal healthcare.

At a minimum, it means healthcare is more expensive for those that pay. At a minimum, the for profit system is a total ripoff far worse than bloated government systems. It’s even that way here.

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