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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: Huskies] * 1
    #29640015 -

1 - I have seen information that indicates that certain alcohols are better extractors than water, but that ethanol is not as effective. The more effective extraction methods require lab grade equipment and supplies and the results, while measurably better than water, do not warrant the extra expense when growing more mush is so cheap. That is just my opinion, though. My goal is to find the best methods that are easily reachable for the home grower. If you have lab access or are getting into large scale production, what I am calling "better" may not be better for you.

2 - The jury is still out on if there is any advantage to reducing the tea all the way down to crystals for making gummies. I like it for increased density and storage, but by weight I am getting approximately the same potency for crystals as the original powdered materials, just a smaller volume in most tests. I have had some outliers with higher concentration of actives in dried tea, not enough samples to work out why it happens sometimes. So you can dry them to crystals if you plan to wait between extraction and making the gummies, but if you intend to make the gummies right away, you can save some time by using the tea as soon as you get it to the desired volume. The end result should be the same per my testing so far.


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Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #29640072 -

1- Noted, ty!

2- And cool, good to know, makes things easier! For using fresh shrooms, would the ratio then be 1g:2ml since they are usually 10x the dry weight? so 100g fresh to 200ml water? Also, you did test higher ratios, even like 100ml to 1g dry, right? 20ml was the sweetspot?

So that means for making large amounts of gummies, the steps are:

A- Use 1g dried to 20 ml water, no citric acid or lemon juice (right?), double steep at 15 minutes gets the majority, triple steep around 3%.

B- Whatever total volume can be reduced slowly without loss of potency. dehydrator is maybe better, and even removing all of the water leaves you with instant powder (which for you, 1g seems to equal 1g dry?). So effectively, once bound, as long as the evaporation is slow, actives will not extinguish.

C- Whatever I reduce to (Dose A), can effectively be considered however as many grams I put in dry (90%). Which means, I can dilute Dose A with tap water to get the amount I need to for a recipe (Dose B). I can then divide the total amount of Gummies by Dose A, and that is how much should be in every one, right?

Like, this scenario seems correct right?

100g of Dry Mushroom, 2000ml water per seep.
6L after Double Decoction,
I can reduce 6L to 500ml, which makes each 5ml contain 1g?

Later, I make a gummy recipe that uses those 500ml, it creates 100 gummies, and I can be fairly certain that 1 gummy equals 1g (actually .9 but that's ok)

I guess with reducing you have to avoid getting into syrup mode. When does that seem to happen for you?


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I call them Huskies cause they Mush!


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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: Huskies] * 1
    #29640103 -

You nailed it.

I would say that 20:1 is the base. Less water was less effective for extraction, more was no problem and might even be better, but then you have a lot more to evaporate to get down to a manageable dose.

For fresh I did exactly that. 2:1 water:fresh mush because of the water content of fresh mush vs dry.

A - True, true, true
B - All true, ime. I would say that evaporation needn't be slow, just not at temperatures near boiling. So dehydrator is better than simmering, but I do not know yet if low temps beat high temps in the dehydrator. That testing is still pending.
C - Yup.
My only concern is the "Later" in "I can reduce 6L to 500ml, which makes each 5ml contain 1g? Later, I make a gummy recipe that uses those 500ml, it creates 100 gummies, and I can be fairly certain that 1 gummy equals 1g (actually .9 but that's ok)"
If you are using tea and not drying it completely it is best to use it right away. If you save the tea for "later" as a liquid, it seems to lose potency quickly. Like overnight in the fridge is enough to make it very weak in my experience.

If it gets syrupy you can still use it by adding more gelatin. I don't have a good estimate on the ratio for when it gets syrupy. With myceliated grain it happened worse for me, but I was using more dry material due to the lower potency (also the worst grain I tried was wheat because of the high gluten content making it very sticky). For mushrooms it was more forgiving, but I don't have a number to put to where it starts to get too thick.


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Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #29640107 -

Ok thanks for clarifying that! I think I'm finally ready!

Interesting about the fridge, freezing doesn't do that though, right? I've had some very potent tea defrosted. I wonder what mechanism that is, any clues?

What does this mean for gummies? Do the preservatives like citric acid help stabilize them, or do they also need to be frozen?

ALSO: I have an Excalibur dehydrator, so I could just remove most of the trays and put the pot directly in, or use baking trays. I guess more baking trays will reduce quicker than one big pot.

How long does reducing normally last for you, and how long do you go? Is there a good ratio you've found for reducing to create gummy recipes?


--------------------
I call them Huskies cause they Mush!


The Official Wild Cubensis Thread
Instant Pot Agar
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Edited by Huskies (08/04/26 03:30 PM)

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: Huskies] * 1
    #29640126 -

I think that freezing slows the chemical reactions to the point of nearly stopping them so that does work. I imagine that the fridge slows it some compared to heated or even room temperature tea, but the very few times I tried to keep liquid tea over night it was a dud the next day.

My first gummies lasted forever without adding citric acid to the extraction. There may have been some in the gelatin, though, because I used Jello brand flavored gelatin or another flavored gelatin for the base back then. Since adding citric acid to the extraction process, I think that the gummies lose potency faster, so I do not recommend that any more. I did a batch without the acid recently and they tasted horrible, so I will be adding some to the next batch at the candy base stage. I suspect that the molecular structure of the gummy binds the psilocybin and water limiting oxidation due to the multi-year potency of my early batches, but that is pure speculation on my part.

I have stored gummies on the shelf in baggies and plastic food containers and they dried out but remained potent. I have stored them in the fridge and freezer and they hold their texture better in plastic food containers or air tight jars. For long term, I would freeze them in air tight jars, but I have not noticed any difference between frozen and refrigerated over the course of a year or two. I also have not done extensive testing on this, just ate and shared what I found in the fridge or freezer and never had a complaint. (Well the last batch had some flavor complaints :puke:)


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Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

Edited by ReverendMyc (08/04/26 04:04 PM)

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #29640189 -

Very cool info, thank you for sharing.

Yeah, so Jello brand gelatin definitely does contain citric acid. According to their patent:

Quote:
Fruit-flavored, powdered gelatin dessert mixes are formulated to obtain a relatively high pH of at least 4.15, and a relatively low gelatin load weight while still retaining a desirable sour taste. The mix contains adipic acid and fumaric and/or citric acid at a weight ratio of 15-21:1. The mix also contains soluble sodium buffer salts and soluble citrate buffer salts at a weight ratio of 0.9-2:1.


I'm reading up on Jello / Pectin / Agar for gummies, and I think Pectin might be a better choice, more room temp solid and it solidifies at a lower ph.


--------------------
I call them Huskies cause they Mush!


The Official Wild Cubensis Thread
Instant Pot Agar
Gnocchi Water Agar
Let's Talk Cowtek

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29640317 -

i know, that was not my intention. i don't mean any disrespect or trying to derail your thread. I'm just genuinely curious and you can answer me privately. the same for Pastywhite.

i don't think creating a thread for debating one single paper can be productive to be honest. the thread would be over in like 5-10 comments or so, that's why i don't create it.

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: Chiron098]
    #29654097 -

Distilled/demineralized water is better for making tea than tap/filtered water, right?
I've been doing this for a few months, but I guess it might just be my own speculation, so I'm asking


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.
"If a person has arrived, at whatever age, at views and beliefs that later make him unhappy, then he can also, through effort of mind and sharpness of reasoning, learn to free himself from these ideas and replace them with ones that correspond more closely to reality."
-Lucien Augen

Edited by Blizzloo (08/24/26 08:40 AM)

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: Blizzloo] * 2
    #29654160 -

I generally use filtered water, but chlorine in water would act as an oxidizing accelerant on the actives, so I would assume that distilled water should be better.

I have started preboiling water to reduce o2 content which also evaporates chlorine. Both actions improve potency stability in the teas. I have not done testing to confirm the improvement of distilled or preboiled water, but have seen no evidence to the contrary.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 3
    #29654167 -

ReverendMyc said:
I generally use filtered water, but chlorine in water would act as an oxidizing accelerant on the actives, so I would assume that distilled water should be better.

I have started preboiling water to reduce o2 content which also evaporates chlorine. Both actions improve potency stability in the teas. I have not done testing to confirm the improvement of distilled or preboiled water, but have seen no evidence to the contrary.


A while back I said I preboil water to remove O2 and had someone jump down my throat saying you can't remove O2 from water. I guess they didn't know that water had dissolved oxygen in it as well as the h20 molecule. 😂
Honestly I have noticed that my tea doesn't turn as blue if iboil it first then add the material so I can only assume it works.


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My Miraculix Potency Test Results
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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29654169 -

I know you've mentioned ascorbic acid, but that specifically seems to be able to create an environment that reduces oxidation in the liquid which is interesting.

https://pubs.acs.org/jafcau/article-abstract/63/6/1819/1466868/How-the-Multiple-Antioxidant-Properties-of?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Both the sloshing around when boiling and during evaporation could be vectors for oxidation.


--------------------
I call them Huskies cause they Mush!


The Official Wild Cubensis Thread
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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: Huskies] * 2
    #29654177 -

I've been doing a fair bit of tea (and gummies) these hot months as I just can't run the dehydrator in my little apartment. In the interest of laziness, I've settled on pre-boiling in a kettle, then for 300g of fresh (that's what I use for a tray of 24 4ml gummies) I add 500ml water, so close to the 2:1, steep 10m, press pot to filter, do it again, and reduce. This is with a variety I've been using since my first Rev-Gummies months ago, and potency seems the same. I reckon sticking to the Rev-Tek more closely would yield a bit more actives but I can't complain!


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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29654686 -

Thanx
Yes, I boil water too — 15 minutes before each infusion, and I make two.

And just as Bigworm writes, the extracts are more transparent. I think they oxidize less.

I would like to add that I once added lemon juice to distilled water (because I had one on hand and thought it would be stronger) and on that one occasion, the effect was weaker than when I dont add it. And it gave me acid reflux during the trip, which I don't like. I didn't repeat the test because, for now, I'm checking the consistency of the dose and the method, but I remember that it happened.

Anyway — thank you for your replies!


--------------------
.
"If a person has arrived, at whatever age, at views and beliefs that later make him unhappy, then he can also, through effort of mind and sharpness of reasoning, learn to free himself from these ideas and replace them with ones that correspond more closely to reality."
-Lucien Augen

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #29657951 -

Quote:
Conclusions:
  • The difference between the single decoction and the final reduction of the triple reduction of the simmered tea was effectively 0 within the margin of error, so not worth the time and energy. However the difference in potency for the steeped tea was significant and clearly the best approach of the methods so far.
  • 30% to 50% of the actives remain in the dregs after one to three decoctions. Take that into your calculations when dosing teas. The loss may be acceptable for those who have difficulty with the mushroom texture, chitin and stomach issues, or for use in making edibles. The actives may be more bio available in a tea, offsetting the loss, but I have no means for measuring that.
  • Dehydrating tea does retain the actives and makes testing tea potency easier. So I call dibs on MAGIC Instant Teatm crystals.
  • Reducing tea does not harm the actives while increasing the concentration.
  • The final weight of the dehydrated tea was nearly exactly 1 gram for both dehydrated teas from 30 ml of liquid tea. So the mg/g is the amount of actives in 30 ml of the reduced teas. 30 ml was 1/4 of the tea reductions so this method can be used to calculate exact doses of gummies by reserving and dehydrating a sample from each batch and doing some math.
  • It is possible to determine the potency of liquid teas as well. This can also be used to calculate the tea potency and math out the dose of gummies more quickly.
  • I make really good spicy vegan chili.


I am quite happy with these results, but still intrigued by the acidifided teas and also the amount of preprocessing of dried tea. e.g. crumbled vs whole vs powdered. Now that I am confident in the direct tea testing I will proceed to do some of those tests the next time I have a free day. Unfortunately, those are somewhat rare, so I can't commit to a time line right now for those.


Hi Rev, would you be able to clear something up for me in the conclusion section?

If I understand this right, you are saying that there's essentially no difference in final potency of the dried tea between doing 1 single decoction and 3 decoctions reduced to the same volume as the single decoction? As in, you would get more physical material but the potency of it would be the same as the first method? If so, would you say doing 3 extracts is worth it for that extra mass or am I not understanding it right?

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: Uzi] * 2
    #29658320 -

Right. The dried materials that I got from 2nd and 3rd extractions were about the same potency as the first extractions. The difference was getting about half (to about a third) the final mass of material with each additional decoction.

Given that, how many decoctions you do is up to you. I got the most bang for my buck out of the first extraction, then diminishing returns on each successive run. I sometimes do two but never more than three. Less decoctions means more wasted actives, but more decoctions means more wasted time and resources, so it is a value decision.

I think that the bioavailability of the actives in the tea may be an overlooked element in teas (and lemon teks to a lesser degree). So even if you are not extracting the total amount of actives into the tea, if the amount that is absorbed in the body in an extraction is greater than what the body can take from the whole fruit bodies, the net effects might be near equal. Or to put it another way, if you take 10mg of actives in tea and piss out 5mg unutilized or you take 20mg as whole fruit and piss out 15mg the total effective dose is the same in either case. Again, that is pure conjecture on my part. My only evidence for that speculation is that capsules made from dried tea feel more potent to me than capsules made of equal potency amounts of powdered dried mush. I don't plan to do any labs on my urine to test that, though.
:piss::dumblol:


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #29658499 -

Hi, I didn't see you used - tried microwave for extraction is there some reason? In theory it might break - burst cithin walls and make better extraction in less time and with less effort (your experiments say temperature is not a big problem - and with microwave it should be much less time with higher temp anyway). Same could be used for bio-availability of the actives in the tea and lemon teks.

"Or to put it another way, if you take 10mg of actives in tea and piss out 5mg unutilized or you take 20mg as whole fruit and piss out 15mg the total effective dose is the same in either case."
This is a different problem, it might be caused by many hypothetical  reasons. Your observation "My only evidence for that speculation is that capsules made from dried tea feel more potent to me than capsules made of equal potency amounts of powdered dried mush" points to that in digestion some part of actives stay encapsulated in powder and cant be used at all, like in dregs after decoctions (not necessarily pissed out but go out the other way).
Next might be the lack of gut phospatase ability to convert all psilocybin to psilocin (psilocybin doesn't cross to blood easily) - is there information about dried tea content of psilocin/psilocybin VS powder?

With bio-availability of psilocin some coconut oil might help (it is mostly mct - psilocin as a fat loving migrate to it, - and could carry it directly skipping first pass in the liver) and lecithin (or egg yolk - to enhance fat absorption - psilocin absorption).

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #29659131 -

ReverendMyc said:
Right. The dried materials that I got from 2nd and 3rd extractions were about the same potency as the first extractions. The difference was getting about half (to about a third) the final mass of material with each additional decoction.

Given that, how many decoctions you do is up to you. I got the most bang for my buck out of the first extraction, then diminishing returns on each successive run. I sometimes do two but never more than three. Less decoctions means more wasted actives, but more decoctions means more wasted time and resources, so it is a value decision.



Ooh so i was correct in my understanding. So with that understood, I did a batch of this dehydrated tea just the same as you explained, doing 3 extractions, starting out at a 20:1 water to fruit ratio by weight, HOWEVER, I had figured from your instructions that the actives in the solid material would be halved after each pull, so how I deviated from your experiment was that I halved the amount of the water each time i did a followup run, so 560g water -> 280g -> 140g.

While I don't have any means of testing the final product other than personal use, I would imagine what you saw in your testing applies here, and that we could remove most actives while not having to triple the amount of water that would need to be boiled off before using a dehydrator, possibly getting the most bang for your buck without dealing with as much stove-babysitting. Again, cannot test precisely myself but perhaps just an idea pitched out that someone like yourself or another could do an A-B test comparing the two different strategies of using the same amount of water each time vs halving each pull.

And one more thing, in your experience, how long about does the instant dried tea last potency- wise and what's the best storage method youve observed so far? Would you say instant tea is a viable way of reducing clutter and that its relatively shelf stable? Thanks mane.

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: Uzi] * 2
    #29659833 -

I agree with the reduction in water with subsequent decoctions probably being the right move. I have not done side-by-side tests, but it was recommended to me by greater minds than mine and when I have tried it seemed to be just as effective.

So far, I have not been able to detect any loss in dried tea after 203 days stored in a glass jar with two piece metal lid. No vacuum or desiccants were used and I do not store it away from light. My test sample sits in a jar on a counter in my office. Along with some other ongoing experiments, I will be testing it again in the next couple of days which will be over 350 days since dehydration. So far, I would call it very stable.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #29660105 -

:takingnotes: :hatsoff:


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An enigma some caerulescens n a mono 😎

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29660308 -

Quote:
I will be testing it again in the next couple of days which will be over 350 days since dehydration. So far, I would call it very stable.


Ooh please do come back with an update. If dehydrated tea is stable up to a year like that, looks like youve found one of the best forms of storage for the goodies.

I was pretty happy with the volume reduction, and it seems like a good method to not have a bunch of jars with fruits laying around if you like to grow frequently for fun lol.

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