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A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer
    #29603020 -

Good afternoon everyone.

Over the past few weeks I have found myself spending a surprising amount of time thinking about developmental stages in mushroom cultivation. Not necessarily because any particular stage is especially mysterious in isolation, but because the transitions between stages often seem more difficult to define than the stages themselves. Most cultivation guides present development as a sequence of recognizable milestones. Colonization leads to consolidation. Consolidation leads to knot formation. Knots lead to primordia. Primordia lead to pins. Pins eventually become mature mushrooms. On paper, this progression appears remarkably straightforward. Reality, however, seems to possess a talent for operating somewhere between the categories we create. A fully colonized substrate is easy to identify. A completely uncolonized substrate is equally easy to identify. The challenge lies in determining the exact moment one became the other. The same issue appears repeatedly throughout cultivation. Many developmental changes occur gradually enough that they become difficult to observe in real time. Looking at photographs taken several weeks apart often reveals dramatic progress. Looking at the same tub every day can create the impression that nothing whatsoever is happening. This is not unique to mushroom cultivation, of course. Anyone who has watched a child grow, learned a new skill, trained for a sport, or attempted to improve at anything over an extended period has likely encountered the same phenomenon. Progress tends to be obvious when viewed across long periods of time and nearly invisible when viewed continuously. Perhaps this explains why cultivation journals are so appealing. A sequence of photographs can transform what felt like a static process into a visible story. A tub that appeared unchanged for days may reveal substantial development when compared against earlier images. Small differences accumulate. Patterns emerge. The passage of time becomes easier to appreciate. Recently, while reviewing a number of cultivation journals, I became interested in the way growers discuss developmental milestones. Particularly the milestones that occur after surface colonization but before obvious pin formation. This seems to be the period where observations become increasingly subjective. A photograph may be posted with the caption "Are these knots?" Several people will confidently answer yes. Several others will confidently answer no. A few will provide answers so detailed and nuanced that one finishes reading them less certain than before. To be clear, I do not necessarily view this as a problem. Biological systems are complicated. Definitions often become blurry near the boundaries between categories. Nature rarely consults our terminology before proceeding with development. Nevertheless, the ambiguity is fascinating. A cluster of tiny white bumps may appear one day. The following day they appear slightly larger. A day later they appear more organized. Several days after that they may become unmistakable. Yet identifying the precise moment at which one stage became another can be surprisingly difficult. This seems especially true when discussing knots and primordia. Many descriptions make the distinction sound straightforward. Sometimes it probably is. Other times the developmental process appears more continuous. A structure gradually changes over time rather than crossing a clearly visible threshold. This observation led me to a question that I suspect many cultivators have wondered about at one point or another. Suppose a grower reaches the point where visible knots are present. Not speculative knots. Not potential future knots. Not tiny features that require optimistic interpretation. Actual knots that most observers would agree are knots. At that stage, under reasonably favorable cultivation conditions, what is generally considered a typical timeframe before those knots develop into primordia? I am not looking for an exact prediction, obviously. There are too many variables for that. Genetics vary. Temperature varies. Moisture levels vary. Fresh air exchange varies. Surface conditions vary. Even seemingly identical tubs can progress at different rates. Still, experienced cultivators often develop a sense for what is normal, unusual, fast, or slow. That broad sense of expectation is what interests me. The reason I find this particular transition so interesting is that it occupies a curious place in the cultivation process. Colonization tends to be relatively easy to monitor because large areas of substrate visibly change over time. Pin formation tends to be relatively easy to monitor because pins are difficult to miss. The intermediate stages, however, seem less cooperative. Development is occurring. Structures are changing. Yet the changes can be subtle enough that interpretation becomes part of the process. A cultivator may spend several days wondering whether something has changed at all. Then, upon reviewing older photographs, realize that substantial development occurred right in front of them. This tendency for gradual change to disguise itself as stagnation seems remarkably common across biology. A tree grows continuously but appears unchanged. Hair grows continuously but appears unchanged. Muscles adapt continuously but appear unchanged. Only after enough time has passed do the accumulated differences become obvious. Perhaps knots and primordia occupy a similar relationship. The more I think about it, the more I appreciate how much of cultivation involves observing processes that operate on timescales slightly slower than human impatience. A day feels long when waiting for visible progress. A week feels longer. By the time two weeks have passed, it becomes tempting to assume that something should have happened simply because sufficient time has elapsed. Unfortunately, fungal organisms appear entirely unimpressed by human expectations regarding scheduling. They proceed at whatever pace they consider appropriate. This reality has likely generated a substantial percentage of all cultivation forum posts ever written. A grower examines their tub. The tub appears healthy. The grower waits. The tub continues appearing healthy. The grower waits some more. Eventually the grower begins searching for reassurance that healthy-looking tubs occasionally take longer than expected. The cycle repeats. I suspect this pattern is nearly universal. In fact, one of the more entertaining aspects of reading cultivation discussions is observing how frequently the same themes emerge. Someone asks whether their grow is progressing normally. Someone else explains that patience is required. The original poster agrees. Several hours later they post another photograph. This is not criticism. I understand completely. Patience becomes much easier to recommend than to practice. Especially when every stage feels as though it might reveal itself tomorrow. Or perhaps the day after tomorrow. Or perhaps three days after that. The uncertainty itself becomes part of the experience. Over time, however, one begins to develop a greater appreciation for the process. The apparent periods of inactivity become less frustrating. The invisible biological activity becomes easier to trust. The timelines become less mysterious. Not because they become predictable, but because one learns that variability is normal. Different grows progress differently. Different genetics express themselves differently. Different environments produce different outcomes. The range of normal turns out to be wider than many beginners initially assume. Still, even within that variability, broad expectations seem useful. Most growers eventually develop a rough sense for what constitutes a reasonable timeline. Not a guarantee. Not a forecast. Not a promise. Merely an informed expectation based on experience. And that is ultimately why I am curious about this particular developmental transition. I have spent time reviewing journals, examining photographs, reading discussions, and comparing timelines. In doing so, I have encountered examples that appear remarkably fast and others that seem surprisingly slow. The result has been a growing appreciation for how variable the process can be, accompanied by a growing curiosity regarding what experienced cultivators would consider typical. Not exceptional. Not unusual. Simply typical. The sort of answer that begins with phrases such as "usually," "often," or "under decent conditions." Because while every grow is different, it seems reasonable to assume that some general patterns still emerge. And understanding those patterns is often one of the most enjoyable parts of learning a new hobby. So I would be interested to hear what others have observed regarding the progression from knots to primordia, particularly what timeframe they generally consider normal when conditions are reasonably favorable. I suspect the answers will vary. Perhaps that variability is itself the answer. Either way, I am curious to hear the experiences of people who have watched that transition unfold many times before. Of course, as I was considering this question, I found myself wondering whether it was actually as simple as it first appeared. At first glance, it certainly seems straightforward. A developmental stage exists. A subsequent developmental stage exists. The question concerns the interval separating the two. One might reasonably expect the answer to consist of a number, or perhaps a range of numbers, accompanied by the customary disclaimers regarding environmental conditions, genetics, and the general unwillingness of living organisms to cooperate with human scheduling preferences. Yet the more I considered the matter, the more I began to suspect that the question itself contains a surprising amount of hidden complexity. This may sound like an attempt to avoid reaching the end of the post. I assure you it is not. Or at least not entirely. The difficulty begins with the fact that questions involving developmental timelines are rarely questions about time alone. Consider, for example, two cultivators observing identical tubs. Both tubs contain knots. Both tubs are healthy. Both tubs will eventually produce primordia after precisely four days. The biological reality is identical. Yet imagine that the first cultivator expects the transition to require ten days. After four days they are delighted. Development has occurred much sooner than anticipated. The process appears rapid. The second cultivator, meanwhile, expects the transition to occur within twenty-four hours. After four days they are frustrated. Development appears sluggish. The process appears slow. Curiously, neither cultivator has observed a different timeline. Only their expectations differ. This suggests that questions concerning developmental speed are often partly questions about expectation management. A timeline acquires meaning only when compared against what one believed beforehand. Without expectations, a duration is merely a duration. Three days is neither fast nor slow in isolation. Five days is neither reassuring nor concerning by itself. Meaning emerges through comparison. This realization led me to wonder whether much of cultivation consists not of growing mushrooms, but of gradually recalibrating one's internal sense of time. Many hobbies seem to produce similar effects. Gardeners become comfortable thinking in seasons. Foresters think in decades. Geologists think in millennia. Astronomers occasionally discuss events separated by millions of years while maintaining a level of casualness that I find deeply unsettling. Cultivators occupy a somewhat more modest temporal niche. Long enough that patience is required. Short enough that impatience remains possible. It is a curious middle ground. Furthermore, there exists the question of definitions. After all, asking how long knots take to become primordia first requires deciding what qualifies as a knot and what qualifies as a primordium. This sounds easy until one begins looking at photographs. Then it becomes considerably less easy. The boundaries separating developmental stages often resemble national borders viewed from orbit. The lines appear sharp on maps. Reality is less cooperative. One person's knot is another person's pre-knot. One person's primordium is another person's enlarged knot. One person's enlarged knot is another person's photograph taken under unusually flattering lighting conditions. The organism itself, of course, is entirely indifferent to these distinctions. It does not consult terminology before continuing development. It simply grows. The categories belong to us. This observation raises an interesting possibility. Perhaps the transition from knot to primordium is less like crossing a finish line and more like watching dawn arrive. Most people can identify night. Most people can identify day. The exact moment one becomes the other is surprisingly difficult to determine. At what point does darkness become light? At what point does evening become night? At what point does a knot become a primordium? The closer one examines such transitions, the more elusive they become. Yet despite these ambiguities, the question remains useful. Humans have always relied upon categories that are imperfect but practical. A coastline cannot be defined with perfect precision. A cloud cannot be measured with perfect precision. A developmental stage cannot be defined with perfect precision. Nevertheless, discussion would become extraordinarily difficult without such concepts. We create labels not because reality naturally contains them, but because communication becomes easier when we pretend it does. This may explain why cultivation discussions often contain such a wide range of answers while still remaining broadly informative. The precise details differ. The general patterns persist. And perhaps that is ultimately what most people seek. Not certainty. Orientation. A rough understanding of where they stand within a process whose exact future remains unknowable. The more I think about it, the more I suspect that timeline questions are fundamentally optimistic. To ask how long knots take to become primordia implicitly assumes that primordia are coming. The question is forward-looking. It concerns progress. It concerns development. It concerns the next stage rather than the previous one. There is something reassuring about that. The cultivator is no longer asking whether anything is happening. They are asking what happens next. That distinction feels important. After all, curiosity about future milestones is generally a sign that current milestones have already been achieved. And perhaps that is why I find the question so interesting. Not because the answer is especially profound. Not because the timeline itself carries any great philosophical significance. But because the question sits at the intersection of observation, expectation, categorization, patience, and curiosity. It is a practical question that accidentally wanders into philosophy if examined closely enough. Then again, perhaps every sufficiently examined question does. At which point I realize I may have spent more time reflecting on the nature of the question than on the question itself. A realization that, in retrospect, should probably not have surprised me.

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: 9white5] * 7
    #29603077 -

:toostoned:


--------------------
"The earth is a very small stage, in a vast cosmic arena.
Our posturing’s, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that
we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged.
To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one
another, and to preserve, and cherish, the only home, we've ever known."


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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: wowimflabbergasted]
    #29603078 -

Quote:
Reality is less cooperative



Ya done answered yer own question pard.

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: stubb]
    #29603081 -

What up AI overlord sockcucka, I’m Lyle and I’m a warlock.

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: stubb]
    #29603129 -

stubb said:
Quote:
Reality is less cooperative



Ya done answered yer own question pard.



Ah you're right i didn't read that part

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: 9white5] * 4
    #29603191 -

Ima be real here:

tl;dr.

But here's the thing.

Most people are posting digital photos taken with a smartphone. The resolution is actually pretty crappy. That's where like 80% of any uncertainty I have comes from. If I'm looking at my own stuff, I know immediately whether I'm looking at knots or something that's off in some way. We git people coming on, without enough experience to know what they're looking at, basically asking "am I pregnant or do I have cancer?" And there are three possible answers to that question, but people tend not to want to say "you might have cancer." Also, a lot of times, the people looking at online pics and making those calls don't actually have enough experience to make the call IRL, either.

What are primordia? You talking just differentiated caps that are a different color than the stem? I figure that usually happens within about a week after I notice knots. But honestly, I discontinue cultures that are too slow with it. The number one cause of sluggish growth, in my opinion, is hidden bacterial issues. Other than that, i don't like growing PE varieties because of their finicky pinning habits. So, with what I'm running right now, it's typically more of an "Oh, shit, pins, oh, shit, fruit" type situation. The pace of mycelial growth and development is actually challenging for me to match up with the demands and pacing of my life. Also, compared with plant horticulture, this shit is basically instant gratification.

Also, just a side note, the relationship between "full colonization" and pinning is a complicated one. There's obviously some sort of colony-wide signaling going on there, but all sorts of things can affect it.

Just like the concept of "flushes," a lot of the differentiation between stages of growth has its roots in cultivation practices and goals, rather than the biology of the organism. For instance, we're concerned with full colonization of our grains because exposing uncolonized grains to open air invites contamination. People used to be more concerned with full colonization of tubs because of the now-obsolete distinction between "colonization conditions" and "fruiting conditions." Consolidation is something that humans who either want a block of a thing to manipulate, or individual grains that are still shake-able, will geek out over. Etc.

Edited by B Traven (06/14/26 07:29 AM)

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: 9white5] * 1
    #29603774 -

:whatthefuck:

Are we talking about Quantum Shroom Cultivation here? :mindblown:


--------------------
"A single lifetime in this density can accomplish a refinement of Will that might take far longer in a realm where the truth is always visible" - Zii, Confederation of Planets, GFL Station.

"You will then have national and global contact around 2026." - Pleiadian Prophecy 2020

PROJECT BLUE BOOK ANALYSIS (PDF Download) - 312 pages! | Psychedelics & UFOs | Ready to Contact UFOs? | The Source on Mushrooms:shroomeryhead:Canned Computer Duster SAB Tek 👨‍🔬 | Trippy Gematrix | Dj TeknoLogical | Fentanyl Test Kits | R.I.P. Big Worm :tombstone: || The Start of the Ascension Process was 2020. 🌎🌍🌏                                                         
:sunny::bliss::mushroom2: Oregon Eclipse Festival 2017 :: Aug 19th - 21st :: Pure Paradise :mushroom2::bliss::sunny: :rainbowdrink: Very Effective LSA Extraction Tek :rainbowdrink: | 💧 Advanced Cold Water LSA Extraction Method 💧 | :cacti::bongload: Mescajuana - Mescaline with Marijuana | DMT Dab Bongs | UFO Technology! :shpongle:Shpongle:shpongle:   

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 4
    #29604333 -

Fucking wall of words. Try paragraphs. They're fun.

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: DV8DUG]
    #29604377 -

DV8DUG said:
Fucking wall of words. Try paragraphs. They're fun.



Paragraphs are for the weak, the spineless, and the spiritually dead.

Edited by 9white5 (06/15/26 01:04 AM)

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: 9white5] * 1
    #29604389 -

The textbook answer is two to four days under optimal conditions. All we're really seeing is a change in size and texture, from small and fluffy when the hyphal strands first aggregate together into knots, to smooth and solid as the hyphae in the knot increase branching and weave themselves together to form the primordia.

I do all my culture and grow checks once a day at most to get closer to fungi time where you can really start to see the difference in growth and development. I know how difficult that can be though, as I used to be a ten times a day peeper myself and there's nothing wrong with that as it's all part of the excitement when you start growing and working with fungi.



--------------------

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29604392 -

Nobody can answer because you haven’t learned simple structure like paragraphs.


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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: CoolBreeze06]
    #29604437 -

CoolBreeze06 said:
Nobody can answer because you haven’t learned simple structure like paragraphs.



I thought about adding paragraphs but I didn't want to make the post unnecessarily long by adding spaces between lines. I pride myself on being concise and straightforward.

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: 9white5] * 1
    #29604438 -

9white5 said:
CoolBreeze06 said:
Nobody can answer because you haven’t learned simple structure like paragraphs.



I thought about adding paragraphs but I didn't want to make the post unnecessarily long by adding spaces between lines. I pride myself on being concise and straightforward.



Okay nah you're trolling :manson:


--------------------

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: 9white5]
    #29604754 -

9white5 said:
CoolBreeze06 said:
Nobody can answer because you haven’t learned simple structure like paragraphs.



I thought about adding paragraphs but I didn't want to make the post unnecessarily long by adding spaces between lines. I pride myself on being concise and straightforward.




Concise means expressing much in few words. It describes communication that is short, clear, and to the point, carefully eliminating unnecessary details or filler while still conveying the full meaning.

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: DV8DUG]
    #29604764 -

You ve got trolled DV8 :rofl:


--------------------
wow

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: 9white5]
    #29604820 -

9white5 said:
CoolBreeze06 said:
Nobody can answer because you haven’t learned simple structure like paragraphs.



I thought about adding paragraphs but I didn't want to make the post unnecessarily long by adding spaces between lines. I pride myself on being concise and straightforward.



I think you finally nailed it. Well done! 😂🤣

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: CoolBreeze06]
    #29604978 -

MY EYES!!! :eyemonster:


--------------------
~ I used to get high on life, until I realized life was cut with morons ~
* You need 2 wake up and smell the music! *
- We are all computer data in a materialistic world -
| Sometimes you have to lose yourself, to find anything |

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: Blazer420]
    #29608732 -

Long-winded, TL;DR please...

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: cire888]
    #29608832 -

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23268078

We use terms like full colonization, consolidation, flushes, etc to describe the traits of the organism. However in a case by case example they rarely fit perfectly into such neat boxes. But we need to distill things down otherwise they become incomprehensible.

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Re: A really simple noob question that for some reason noone seems to be able to answer [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #29608840 -

Now that's a deep trawl to pull Pasty out of the depths...


--------------------
I've got skills, they don't know where to use me
I'm like the best dressed guy at the nude beach
Nice to meet you!

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