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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: Awebig Throy]
    #29572252 -

... and then there are a matching number of texts coming from the sociological perspective.

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: Awebig Throy] * 1
    #29572354 -

...and have you read any of those?

Worrying about the economic plight of the Weimar Republic is quite common. Completely unsupported by actual data, but it really does fit the neoliberal mold of "as long as people can buy shit they don't need they're happy".

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: Kryptos] * 2
    #29572731 -

Kryptos said:
Quote:
Awebig Throy said:
You have no idea what you are talking about.  You cannot and will not ever beat/scare the racism out of anyone.


Perhaps you don't understand. I do not seek to scare people. I do not seek to beat the racism out of people. I'm not a scary person, unless you're terrified of tall aryan looking folk.

It's just when 'scary' racist people try to start shit, I don't mind stepping up and punching them in the mouth. I consider that self defense.


+1

I'm not trying to beat the racism out of anyone - I'm beating the neo-Nazis out of my community.


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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #29572770 -

What is the point of this thread? Are people experiencing a surge of nazi blended behaviors by others in the world? Is this experienced online or something?

Does this specifically relate to prejudice against certain groups for those who are experiencing more people expressing ‘nazi’ sentiments?

I don’t run into Nazis in my day to day. And even if I did, I wouldn’t be punching them, nor would I recommend that anyone else do - as that is assault.


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notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: Mickalopagus] * 3
    #29572809 -

I can't speak for Asante's motivations in creating this thread - but yes, neo-Nazis still exist, and will threaten vulnerable members of my community if unopposed.

Legality ≠ morality. I am comfortable risking consequences, both legal and physical, in order to defend those at greater risk of being on the receiving end of neo-Nazis violence.


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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #29573251 -

Would you consider someone who hates Jewish people a Nazi? Or do they have to meet some other criteria?

Can people who do not like Jewish people express as much without getting a (neo?) Nazi label slapped on them? I honestly don’t know what makes someone a Neo-Nazi.


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notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: Mickalopagus]
    #29573296 -

Mickalopagus said:
Would you consider someone who hates Jewish people a Nazi? Or do they have to meet some other criteria?

Can people who do not like Jewish people express as much without getting a (neo?) Nazi label slapped on them? I honestly don’t know what makes someone a Neo-Nazi.


They generally assume all right wingers are nazis, shivas.wisdom excuted.


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The better guide to grow mushrooms.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Beware the power of one.  The power of two. The power of many.

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: Mickalopagus] * 1
    #29573314 -

Mickalopagus said:
Would you consider someone who hates Jewish people a Nazi? Or do they have to meet some other criteria?

Can people who do not like Jewish people express as much without getting a (neo?) Nazi label slapped on them? I honestly don’t know what makes someone a Neo-Nazi.


A neo Nazi is someone who subscribes to the belief system of Nazi Germany and wishes to replicate it to varying extent. This almost universally includes targeting Jews, as that is the commonly known scapegoat.

Given the broader choice of policies, and the fact that Nazi has rapidly become a generic trademark for various combinations of those policies, this also includes targeting LGBT, POC, leftists, communists, unionists, anyone deemed 'medically unfit' (by vague criteria), non-christians, those that speak out, and others I am missing off the top of my head. Groups not explicitly targeted are subjugated, which generally encompasses the entire working class, and any businesses that are not politically connected through wealth or relationship.

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: Kryptos]
    #29573560 -

Ok gotcha... so not simply one indicator or marker, but rather they meet several thresholds in order to really fit into that category. Based on, but expanding upon your statement, something like:

- Admiration for or identification with Nazi Germany & Hitler, and a desire to recreate or emulate Nazi ideology, governance, or social order
- Belief in racial hierarchy or ethnic supremacy (especially [but not limited to] Aryan - white supremacy)
- Antisemitism as a central worldview (Jews portrayed as enemies, conspirators, or scapegoats)
- Support for ethnic cleansing, segregation, deportation, or genocide
- Use or promotion of Nazi symbolism, slogans, or propaganda in a supportive (not historical) context
- Association with openly neo-Nazi organizations or movements


Notes:
The segregation part was intentionally left broad, to include any group that a Neo-Nazi would feel as inferior to themselves, so can be one, or all others?

That is 6 criteria listed above. Would you agree that someone needs to meet all 6 to really classify as a Neo Nazi, or 5/6? Or if they just feel strongly about one but not the others, they are kind of a nazi lol. I think like you had alluded to, the term is somewhat of a trademark branding for someone who fits maybe a few categories above, but then that kind of gives the word a much looser and diluted meaning, and as a result impact in conversation.


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notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #29573567 -

I would say the simplest description of neo-Nazi ideology is 'white supremacist fascism'. Fascists come in all sorts of flavours, but a neo-Nazi will always have Aryan identity as a central pillar.

Hating Jewish people as a group might get one labeled as an antisemite, and neo-Nazis tend to also be antisemites - but they are still distinct categories. On the other hand, I don't hold back my criticism of Israel, but I've never been seriously called a neo-Nazi or antisemite. These days, in my experience at least, it's visibly queer people who are at the highest risk of neo-Nazi violence, and I grew up in punk scenes with large amounts of visibly queer youth.

Neo-Nazis street gangs have been drawn to aggressive music since the boneheads invaded the skinhead scene back in the late 1960s. Like MAGA dancing to Rage Against the Machine, they just hear the aggression without any of the underlying politics. This is a problem that must be immediately stamped out for three reasons:

1) They come to fight, they come in groups, and they will target the most vulnerable.

2) They will seek to recruit from the community, targeting (once again) the most vulnerable youth for their street gangs.

3) If the problem is allowed to metastasize, the balance of power can quickly shift as targeted groups leave the community and suddenly you're surrounded by neo-Nazis, and it's a lot harder to flip things around than keep them out in the first place.


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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: vicepope]
    #29573570 -

vicepope said:
They generally assume all right wingers are nazis, shivas.wisdom excuted.





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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: Asante] * 2
    #29573605 -

Yet so many fascist and nazi apologists are given a platform here on the shroomery.

vicepope said:
Again none of the right wing groups are building camps in the 21st century its left wing groups.



--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #29573645 -

shivas.wisdom said:
I would say the simplest description of neo-Nazi ideology is 'white supremacist fascism'. Fascists come in all sorts of flavours, but a neo-Nazi will always have Aryan identity as a central pillar.

Hating Jewish people as a group might get one labeled as an antisemite, and neo-Nazis tend to also be antisemites - but they are still distinct categories. On the other hand, I don't hold back my criticism of Israel, but I've never been seriously called a neo-Nazi or antisemite. These days, in my experience at least, it's visibly queer people who are at the highest risk of neo-Nazi violence, and I grew up in punk scenes with large amounts of visibly queer youth.

Neo-Nazis street gangs have been drawn to aggressive music since the boneheads invaded the skinhead scene back in the late 1960s. Like MAGA dancing to Rage Against the Machine, they just hear the aggression without any of the underlying politics. This is a problem that must be immediately stamped out for three reasons:

1) They come to fight, they come in groups, and they will target the most vulnerable.

2) They will seek to recruit from the community, targeting (once again) the most vulnerable youth for their street gangs.

3) If the problem is allowed to metastasize, the balance of power can quickly shift as targeted groups leave the community and suddenly you're surrounded by neo-Nazis, and it's a lot harder to flip things around than keep them out in the first place.


Gotcha  - so from this I am getting that a person can appropriately be labeled a Neo-Nazi due to core beliefs about their skin color, white or Aryan, being at the top of a racial hierarchy, and all others below them. And with that belief comes the desire for segregation, etc.. However - there is more to it than that in that a person can feel this way, but are not necessarily a threat until they mobilize and attend events where they practice their beliefs in the presence of others around them, and specifically on populations that are vulnerable to targeting of this kind.

If that is an accurate summary of what you stated, what do people think makes Neo-Nazi's (as described above) determine that other races are inferior to them? What specific traits and qualities do they feel ultimately lands them above all others on the grand scale? Is it across the board that they think they're just better in every category? Is that something that could even be answered accurately without a Neo-Nazi to answer it?


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notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: Mickalopagus]
    #29573652 -

I am not sure of the point you are trying to make here.  Not a defense hopefully.

Edited by gww (05/11/26 01:11 PM)

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: gww]
    #29573657 -

gww said:
I am not sure of the point you are trying to make here.  Not a defense hopefully.


Lulz. no

I am trying to understand differences across racist populations, and it seems that there are tiers. Neo-Nazi evokes a very strong response for me, in that I grew up learning about the holocaust, Hitler, and what those Nazis were doing. As a result when I hear the word Nazi today, I kind of think the worst of the worst - right at the top of the racist tier (with maybe a few other assholes).

But I feel like people throw the term out more loosely today, and for me, I just don't particularly like the dilution of a word and concept that should be kind of burdened with the shame it carries. It should mean what it was, but Im now thinking that I need to reshape my understanding of it in todays political landscape.


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: Mickalopagus] * 2
    #29573674 -

The whole reason to remember nazi and never forget is to use history to protect ourselves in the future.  Seeing signs and trends while smaller and nipping them in the butt seems to be the best way to not repeat and for it to not be too late. 

Nothing is new in the world, even the bad.  Peoples wants and needs have not changed that much through history and so everything is still possible today that was always possible and so to me it is more picking a side early and building on that and trying to be one of the people on the right side in hopes of the right thing happening. 

Is my side good enough that I would be proud of my children if they picked it?  Mistakes are one thing and forgivable but evil is beyond a mistake and having examples of where smaller evils can lead is not really about names of the small evils but more about not pursuing a path that leads to the names results.  If the goals have been shown in the past to end us up in the bad, then the persons with the goals deserve the moniker.

Edited by gww (05/11/26 01:50 PM)

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: Mickalopagus] * 3
    #29573683 -

I do prefer the term fascist over Nazi, unless discussing Nazis.

But there's a lot of fascists going masks off atm.  And a lot of folks on the right justifying it.  So, the word ends up getting used a lot.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: tree frog]
    #29573706 -

I guess having the clarity among terms is at least helpful in the context of whatever future conversations I end up in. Historically, I have preferred not to engage in or think about this kind of stuff,  but just have been talking about this politically charged shit with people IRL more and more... not necessarily 'Nazi' shit, but stuff that is skirting all those lines, and imo, it all gets blurry unless one is to have a solid definition and construct through which to direct conversations...

to gww's point - I do agree that nipping it in the bud so that ultimately people arent suddenly surrounded by skinheads at a no doubt concert can be a good thing lol.. but also I do want to keep discourse available with people whose thoughts are different than my own, and might even skirt the boundaries, without straight up labeling them a neo-nazi, etc... IMO that just closes the conversation for all parties.


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notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: Mickalopagus] * 1
    #29573715 -

I hear you.

But unfortunately a lot political discourse even here isn't in good faith.  For example vicepope's ridiculous claim that the right isn't building concentration camps (Gaza and Alligator Alcatraz apparently aren't concentration camps...)

Folks like that will gaslight us all into the gas chambers.  And frankly, it's not in my best interest to keep investing time into a website that gives a platform to fascist propaganda.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Why Nazism should not be given a platform as a supposedly "legitimate" political alternative. [Re: tree frog] * 1
    #29573748 -

idk... i kind of see a benefit to having the contrary takes.

not like peoples views on this website have a direct imact on my life. Hell, even peoples views that I am close with IRL really doesnt have an impact on the way I live or feel.. I have little issue hearing the opposition, partly so I might be able to use that experience to strengthen any counterargument. If people are trying to use psychological manipulation in their arguments, I think its good to be aware of how to disarm that, or sidestep it. Id rather it happen here than IRL, and maybe if it happens here, you can use that information to counter when it matters more than in an online environment.


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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