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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: Phred]
    #5631463 - 05/15/06 08:12 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:rolleyes:

I guess as far as you're concerned anything that doesn't agree with Fox news or one of those deranged right-wing blogs you get your information from must be "left-wing". I'm sorry but that isn't the case.

A left-wing newspaper wouldn't have supported Blairs invasion of Iraq. Think about it.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: Alex213]
    #5631474 - 05/15/06 08:24 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Please name a newspaper you would classify as left-leaning.



Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: Phred]
    #5631488 - 05/15/06 08:41 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The Guardian also fell into line to support Blair's propaganda bullshit about "genocide" in Kosovo.

A left-leaning mainstream newspaper? I'm still looking for one.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: Alex213]
    #5631601 - 05/15/06 10:03 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Chavez has done some noble things for the poor, but like RandalFlagg said, he's pretty loony, and his rhetoric shows that he's no friend of free speech. The more I learn about him, the more he reminds me of his buddy Castro.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: Alex213]
    #5631872 - 05/15/06 12:09 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Why is genocide in quotations?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: Redstorm]
    #5632071 - 05/15/06 01:06 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Because there was no genocide.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: Alex213]
    #5632326 - 05/15/06 02:17 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Because there was no genocide.



Ya, and can you believe those crazy conservatives who think the holocaust actually happened?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: Alex213]
    #5632367 - 05/15/06 02:34 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The killings in Darfur are just a civil war, too. The only problem is that one side has weapons and the other doesn't.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: Redstorm]
    #5632381 - 05/15/06 02:41 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Just compare the respective numbers of casualties in Kosovo and Darfur.

For Kosovo, of course, don't look at the 1999 newspapers, when the media were pressing for intervention. Try to find some figures on casualties from independent sources, compiled after the war, when Camp Bondsteel (google it) had been established and there was nothing to gain anymore. Then tell me if a "genocide" has ever been going on there.

Silversoul, look up the definition for "genocide". Or show me sources for the existence of concentration/extermination camps, gas chambers and the like in Kosovo.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: Aldous]
    #5632407 - 05/15/06 02:47 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

There doesn't have to be camps or gas chambers for it to be genocide.

Quote:

The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide was adopted by the UN General Assembly in December 1948 and came into effect in January 1951. It defines and outlaws genocide, as a result of campaigning by Raphael Lemkin who had coined the term some years earlier. The total number of states who have ratified the convention is currently 137.

The Convention (in article 2) defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:"

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention

Also, a genocide doesn't have to be completely successful for it to still be planned genocide.


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: psilomonkey]
    #5634045 - 05/15/06 08:09 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

psilomonkey said:
Populist, yes. Seriously questionable policies, yes. Insane, I don't think so.

But why is it nutty to thing America will attack him, either directly or by proxy? Its not like America does not have form in region.

1954 Guatemala CIA-trained exiles overthrew the socialist government
1961 Cuba CIA-trained exiles invade Cuba
1965 Dominican Republic America invades in installed new government
1983 Grenada 1,900 US Marines invaded and deposed the existing government
1984 Nicaragua CIA secretly mined Nicaraguan harbors
1989-90 Panama US invasion force of 24,000 overthrew President Noriega
1994 Haiti US invasion and occupation




2006 Venzeula Chavez invasion and occupation of Venzeula


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: Redstorm]
    #5636013 - 05/16/06 02:47 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

There doesn't have to be camps or gas chambers for it to be genocide.

There has to be a lot of bodies tho.

Also, a genocide doesn't have to be completely successful for it to still be planned genocide.

It has to have an existence in the real world outside of a western politicians mind trying to justify an invasion tho.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: Luddite]
    #5636017 - 05/16/06 02:48 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

2006 Venzeula Chavez invasion and occupation of Venzeula


Come again?

Was this "occupation" after he won the 10 elections?


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: Redstorm]
    #5636340 - 05/16/06 05:41 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
There doesn't have to be camps or gas chambers for it to be genocide.
[...]
Also, a genocide doesn't have to be completely successful for it to still be planned genocide.


Absolutely, but the intention has to be there. One group arbitrarily killing about 50 members of another group does not suffice to establish such intention. The Racak massacre was the event that triggered the Western response, along with a lot of propaganda. It was the worst single real-life event that led up to it, so you can hardly label that a "genocide". In the first few days of the intervention, there was word of "up to 500,000 people massacred". In the aftermath, it appeared that less than 2,000 (if I remember well) people had been killed throughout the whole series of events (which had been accelerated by the Western intervention).

Still convinced it was a "genocide"? You know, the problem with that word, like with "fascism" and other loaded terms, is that one should use them with measure if they are to keep some impact. When a white racist kills a random black man for racial motives and gets arrested, you could argue that he had the intention of killing all blacks (or at least, as many as possible) and charge him with genocide. But that would just lessen the impact of the concept, and it would be useless when really needed.

But let's get back to Venezuela.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Chavez provides alternative for a decent society [Re: Aldous]
    #5636903 - 05/16/06 12:04 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

But let's get back to Venezuela.




:thumbup:


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