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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: tree frog] * 1
    #29439007 -

Is Pan Cyan synonomoous with Panaeolus?


Mystery SA/SAO2

Often folks will use the word Pan to mean Panaeolus cyanescens.  When I first started growing, I found this particularly confusing.  But Pan Cyans are a particular species in the genus Panaeolus, in the same way that Psilocybe cubensis is a particular species in the genus Psilocybe.

To make things a tad more confusing, Panaeolus cyanescens is also the type specimen for the section, cyanescens.  Previously, this section was called copelandia.  And often I use both together to help delineate that I'm discussing the section, rather than the type species for that section.

The section copleandia/cyanescens includes many described and undescribed species of mushrooms.  The photo above is a collection from Africa, closely related to cyanescens and bisporus.  Commonly referred to as Mystery SA or Beach Pan.  And likely the same or a closely related species to the Tea Tree Pan.  Other species in this section include the aforementioned bisporus, chlorocystis, tropicalis, axfordii, and cambodginiensis.  Species in this section are easily identified as belonging to this section microscopically,  though identification of specific species often requires sequencing.  Copelandia mushrooms are also very potent compared to most active species.  And the type species, cyanescens is the most widespread active in the world.

Unlike Psilocybe, the genus Panaeolus also includes many inactive species, such as Panaeolus antillarum and Panaeolus foenisecii.  As well as some other, weaker species not in section copelandia, such as Panaeolus cinctulis and Panaeolus olivaceious.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (12/25/25 06:22 AM)

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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: tree frog] * 1
    #29439010 -

When and why do Pans love evaporation?


Pan bisporus in a dreamer dialed in using Jake's methods

Mycelium uses evaporation to self regulate heat.  Because many of the pans we grow like to pin at higher temperatures, they need more evaporation to keep cool than species such as Agaricus bisporus, which fruits in the 60s.  And this is most important as during cap development, to protect the fragile DNA before spores are fully mature.

While good evaporation allows caps to fully mature, it also requires fluctuations in the grow environment.  As condensation happens mostly around 90 rH, while evaporation happens faster as you approach 80 and lower.  An automated system needs to fluctuate between these two points, adding moisture to the fruits with a fogger so they don't dry out.  And then exhausting the moisture in the air to drop the rH low enough for evaporation to occur.

Temperature, light, and air motion are all factors that play a role in how evaporation and condensation occur.  For further reading on condensation and evaporation, google dew point and relative humidity.  There are a number of calculators that can help us to understand when we can start expecting to see condensation on our fruits.  Which typically are about 2C cooler than the ambient temperature, thanks to evaporative cooling.

For more on evaporative cooling and fungi, here's an excellent article.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10175714/

And for the OG write up on Pans and evaporation, check out Jake's posts here.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25925194

Edit:  5000th post!


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (12/25/25 06:27 AM)

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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: tree frog]
    #29439015 -

What is a casing?

Pan bisporus with a pH adjusted peat casing, no verm

A casing is a different material than your substrate.  One more conducive to knotting and pin formation then vegetative growth.

Conditions like electrical conductivity, microbe profile, pH shift, moisture content, mineral content, reduced macro nutrients, especially carbon, porosity.  The micro climate.  All of those are conditions that can help the colony knot and the mushrooms grow.  And different species have different preferences in regards to what those conditions are.

It's usually applied at full colonization, as it will be utilized more evenly.  Some folks let it colonize a bit, some don't.  These days, I case and put the colony directly into fruiting at 80f.

This is an informative paper if you'd like more information on various casing materials that have been used by gourmet mushroom growers .

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354710894_Revisiting_the_casing_layer_Casing_materials_and_management_in_Agaricus_mushroom_cultivation


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: tree frog]
    #29439019 -

Agar recipes and why low nutrient plates?


Pans are not aggressive on plates with typical amounts of sugar, such as 2% light malt extract. This makes selecting healthy growth more difficult, as it's hard to grab leading hyphae. So for transfers, I prefer 0.5% LME. And for germination, to minimize bacteria and mold germination, I prefer water agar. Water agar also helps discourage clamp connections, making isolating monokaryons a tad easier.  Especially when combined with a 'grab and drag', which I'll cover in a future post (for now, you can learn more on YouTube).

The two agar recipes I use are pretty simple to gather from the above paragraph, but here they are for reference.

Water agar plates
500ml filtered water
10g agar

0.5% full nutrient plates
500ml filtered water
10g agar
2.5g lme

Also see Baba's agar work in this thread, as he's who taught me this.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27637997/page/1


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: tree frog]
    #29439021 -

Pastuerization, compost, and thermophiles



Someone asked me some questions about pasteurization versus sterilization in regards to casing.  But the following information applies to both our casings and our substrate, and my hope is that I can help folks get a better understanding of exactly what it is we are doing when we pasteurize.

So, if we take a look at the infographic above, we can see the ranges that different types of microorganisms thrive at.  And when we pasteurize, what we're aiming for is a temperature that's hot enough that it's going to kill off mold spores while still allowing thermophilic organisms to thrive and multiply.

An hour at 140f, is long enough and hot enough to kill off competitor molds and bacteria, but not hot enough that our thermophiles are going to start to die.  Which begins to happen around 160f.

At room temperature, the thermophiles in our pasteurized substrate or casing, are essentially dormant.  But they have managed to colonize all of the potential nutrient sources in our pasteurized material.  This prevents competitors spores from germinating.

If we were to simply sterilize our casing or substrate, we would be killing off everything.  But because there are mold spores in the air, as soon as we expose that material to open air, it can potentially become contaminated.  Because the spores in the air will have uncolonized nutrient sources to germinate on.

https://www.compostmagazine.com/compost-science/


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: tree frog]
    #29439024 -

Storing pastuerized materials


Generally I use a unicorn bag folded over and pinched shut for smaller amounts of material.  And have the large modified buckets above when I want to store more (though the material can dry out, especially during the winter when it's dry here).  If you want to make bucket lids like mine, I'd suggest just one SFD.

Anyway, the idea is that we want to allow some gas exchange so our material doesn't become anaerobic, while maintaining most of the moisture and keeping insects out.  Aside from that, pastuerized material can be stored at room temperature or in a cool basement.  If we store it where it can freeze, the thermophiles will likely die.  And if we store it someplace hot, they will begin to compost the material, which isn't much of an issue, as long as they don't run out of oxygen and become anaerobic.

In summary, store at room temperature with gas exchange, and in a container that maintains most of the humidity without letting insects in.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: tree frog]
    #29439032 -

Fruiting Tempermental Pans

Pan chlorocystis, fruiting with rye grass seed and azospirillum

Many Panaeolus are leaf litter or grass loving fungi.  They're used to growing in conditions where the relative humidity is very high at the surface, with high evaporation above the grass line, where they're more exposed to wind and sun.  Evaporation helps the caps mature, as the mycelium can cool itself off.  Protecting the delicate DNA as the spores mature.

Grass seed is also covered in endospores.  Mycorrhizal fungi and bacteria.  Which may be beneficial to the mycelium, as they can help to make nutrients more bioavailable, and possibly even produce hormones that encourage pinning.

Pictured is Panaeolus Chlorocystis.  The grass is a perennial rye, but I've also used wheatgrass.  The grass in the photo was inoculated with Azospirillum, a root loving bacteria that produces indole-3-acetic acid, a hormone that encourages plant growth.  Studies on indole-3-acetic acid have also shown that it encourages pinning in some fungi species.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (12/25/25 06:59 AM)

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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: tree frog]
    #29439038 -

Pans more challenging to grow than cubes?

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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: divineverdance] * 1
    #29439052 -

Yeah, they need to be cased which is the big thing you'll want to learn.  Also, the mycelium behaves much differently which creates a steep learning curve in regard to agar and mycelium selection.

Aside from that, faht is growing them with ziplock bags and baba taught folks to grow them in mono tubs.

But, they do like higher temps (like low 70s to low 90s, I run mine at 80f).  And higher temps change a lot of other things like the importance of evaporation and higher oxygen consumption.  Which is why I run them at 80f rather than 90f.

But, like I said, folks do grow them in less dialed in environments.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: tree frog]
    #29439063 -

Right on, Sounds like something I might have to wait til summer to play with...

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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: tree frog]
    #29439102 -

tree frog said:
Yeah, they need to be cased which is the big thing you'll want to learn.  Also, the mycelium behaves much differently which creates a steep learning curve in regard to agar and mycelium selection.

Aside from that, faht is growing them with ziplock bags and baba taught folks to grow them in mono tubs.

But, they do like higher temps (like low 70s to low 90s, I run mine at 80f).  And higher temps change a lot of other things like the importance of evaporation and higher oxygen consumption.  Which is why I run them at 80f rather than 90f.

But, like I said, folks do grow them in less dialed in environments.



Merry Christmas šŸ„šŸ„šŸ„

Pans in ziplocks? Do you have a link to this? I've just seen cubes in there in faht's thread.

Edited by shroboo (12/25/25 08:37 AM)

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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: shroboo]
    #29439158 -

So the strategy is essentially the same as with cubes.  But with a fan on a timer to occasionally remove co2 from the grow space (probably not blowing directly on the trays).

And yeah I don't see where he has posted that here yet. We talked about it a little bit in DMs.  I imagine he'll share once he has more to share.  But I have seen some of his results and yeah they look great. The Ziploc bag traps enough heat to raise the temperature above 70 and the occasional air exchange from the fan is enough to help with fruit morphology at those temperatures.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: divineverdance]
    #29439159 -

divineverdance said:
Right on, Sounds like something I might have to wait til summer to play with...


Or late spring.  Depending on where you live.

It gets chilly here during the winter and we don't like to crank the heat.  I have gone to some pretty ridiculous lengths to grow pans all year round.  And during the spring I have tons of gnats here too so that's a whole other thing to deal with.

Anyway the nearby tote in this picture is for climate control.  Two heating pads inside, two on top.  Hooked up to a thermostat.  And then a couple of computer fans on low and an expensive fogger that fills this chamber.



Which blows into this chamber where I actually fruit mushrooms.



All climate controlled to alternate condensation (near saturated humidity), evaporation (under 90 rH), and prevent co2 build up.  (The fogger cycles about every 10 minutes which kicks on an exhaust fan).



But like I said, there are simpler strategies.  I just like to take my mind off things by designing and building ridiculous projects.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (12/25/25 09:59 AM)

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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: tree frog]
    #29439810 -

tree frog said:
So the strategy is essentially the same as with cubes.  But with a fan on a timer to occasionally remove co2 from the grow space (probably not blowing directly on the trays).

And yeah I don't see where he has posted that here yet. We talked about it a little bit in DMs.  I imagine he'll share once he has more to share.  But I have seen some of his results and yeah they look great. The Ziploc bag traps enough heat to raise the temperature above 70 and the occasional air exchange from the fan is enough to help with fruit morphology at those temperatures.


Cool, thanks for the explanation. But what about a casing, i guess if it is and stays an AIO bag there won't be any casing like in the original tek? Hope it's fine to discuss this here, i might ask as well in the pan thread, don't want to fill up your space too much, let me know šŸ™ƒ

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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: shroboo] * 1
    #29439927 -

A casing is probably less important in a bag yeah.

But, they do a lot more than just protecting primordia from drying out, so my suspicion is yield would suffer.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/29439015#29439015


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: tree frog]
    #29468756 -

What a great consolidation of information on Pans, thanks for all your hard work tree frog!

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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: tree frog]
    #29536719 -

Hello Im wondering whats your current bulk substrate recipe that you prefer? Ill be making a few 30qt monotub soon of ttbvi and some bisporus.

Im leaning toward 3 qt coir and 1 qt composted sheep manure.

I also would like to add some worm casting in a few different tubs to see if I notice a difference but im unsure what ratio I should add it and if I should do coir/worm casting alone or coir/sheep manure/worm casting wombo combo.

What do you think?


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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: Anomalocaris]
    #29536725 -

I would use the worm casting as an additive.  So keep your manure in it, and add about 5 to 10% worm castings.

I also like to use it in my casing. I add a handful per qt of peat.

What I'm currently using is AIO containers.  And I've been playing with a lot of different things.

But if you have sheep manure use it, I bet they will love it :smile:


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (04/03/26 08:11 PM)

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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: tree frog]
    #29536764 -

Any reason you prefer aio containers now?

Perhaps ill try some in the future. What size jars and sub recipe?


--------------------

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Re: tree frog's notes on pans [Re: Anomalocaris]
    #29536776 -

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/29525933#29525933

You can also use little jars and top fruit those.  Or larger jars and spawn them to coir and worm castings.

Anyway, I do prefer sterilizing my manure and the manure makes the grains be forgiving.  Especially if you want to do small projects, and top fruit them. Because then they don't even get broken up.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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