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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 3
    #28679985 -

Stipe-n Cap said:
BeefSupremeJr said:
Im not sure if stipe is ever going to post again....



:hi:



big sigh of relief over here.

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: tree frog] * 5
    #28679987 -

Aseptic technique will have the most influence on outcome; however, I do believe/rely in/on redundancy measures.

I can only speak for myself, but when I adopt SOPs I first look to those who work in labs, not other mushroom cultivators, vendors, or internet personalities.

Aseptic technique involves more than just work-flow within certain environments, like SAB vs hood, for example. Abandoning the use of gloves, appropriate sanitizing agents, and other consumables including scalpels, loops, spreaders, etc, is a move in the wrong direction, imo.

It's one thing to suggest stop-gap equipment, off label use, so to speak, for freshly minted noobs, but not for seasoned cultivators in the game for the long run.

There's many corners available to be cut, which is fine in the beginning, and personal preferences will dictate along with personal finances, availability etc; Make due with what you can, but for those of us who don't require the wholesale cutting of procedure and equipment, we should be attempting to adopt more where applicable, not less.

When working on cultures it's standard SOP to sanitize all working surfaces prior to work;

Gloves are utilized because skin is constantly shedding particles, the gloves serve as touch barriers. Verticle vs Horizontal sterile flow will have an impact on work flow, mitigation of errant particles would be wise;

Proper tools like actual scalpels, inoculation loops, cell spreaders, pipettes, petri dishes, media bottles or an appropriate alternative, etc, are not less desirable because one can cut corners and do without.

There appears to be a downward trend with regard to equipment and procedures, folks appear to pride themselves in the sentiment: "why should I do that when I don't have to", which is generally speaking, a poor attitude no matter where it's applied.

Cultivation is a fun hobby, it's rewarding in many ways, so do what makes you happy, but adopting less than ideal operating procedures or equipment in the name of less effort seems....I'm not sure what, I can't put my finger on it.

While on the topic of sanitizing agents, many work, but not all qualify as the right tool for our particular job. Strong h2o2 is a great sanitizing agent, but so is soap, bleach, and an assortment of alcohols at different concentrations.

We use 70% iso because it's both efficacious and evaporates quickly, where soap is efficacious but doesn't evaporate.  Although sanitizing agents aren't strictly necessary, they certainly assist the cultivator in the battle against microorganisms.

Alan Rockefeller is a great example of a serious myco-nerd who takes pride in his work. He's an excellent representative for the community. Although Alan could very easily cut most of what he deploys in pursuit of his trade, he maintains proper lab etiquette, SOP, and equipment. They exist for a reason.


I think I'm getting even more long winded than usual.

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #28679999 -

Good post.

Made me reconsider my stance on gloves and iso.

Didn't use them because i thought i can get away without, but i will in the future.

Thanks!

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 4
    #28680009 -

I think it always bears repeating, too, that the time/materials saved in cutting a corner on the front end may end up costing much more on the back end. I got a lot more serious about redundancy measures and proper sterile technique after tossing an unacceptable number of jars and plates, and just generally getting sick of growing out anemic bacterial tubs.

"It works" always begs the question of what constitutes "working."


--------------------


ACAB  🖕🧊


Edited by B Traven (02/28/24 06:37 PM)

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #28680020 -

B Traven said:
"It works" always begs the question of what constitutes "working."



Absolutely.

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Yahra] * 2
    #28680021 -

fuck n a stipe. i see that your vacation has rejuvenated your ability to articulate!  Its really what ive been trying to get at. 

"whats good for the goose.."

Personally? Ive pushed the envelope.  ive done transfers in open air, forgone any Disinfectants, worked without gloves etc.  ive drunkenly taken clones with virtually no aseptic protocols and still somehow managed to create a clean culture.

eyes on the prize.  were trying to teach "freshly minted noobs" (lol) to grow mushrooms.  the most reliable advice will always be do *e v e r y t h i n g* you can to combat contamination.

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: BeefExtreme]
    #28680026 -

"success" is a relative term in this hobby.  ive seen pictures of "successful" grows that I would have thrown in the trash. 
Not to sound like a snob, but anything worth doing is worth doing well.  I barely have enough time for my own success so I can't imagine what failures would do to my schedule.

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 3
    #28680037 -

We can get away with an awful lot of shenanigans, which makes it difficult to articulate this sentiment to new growers

B Traven said:
"It works" always begs the question of what constitutes "working."



Everything "works" but some things work better than others, any result isn't qualitatively synonymous with best results; UB tek is a great example of this: "you can't prove that it doesn't work because I grew mushrooms".

We live in the golden age of cultivation, long gone are the days of manure and drip shields. There's almost too many options these days, but there's enough practical/effective teks to suit just about any experience level and disposition despite all of the bad or inaccurate info in circulation.

The key is, and I think this is the point of this thread, is to separate the wheat from the chaff. Some thing's are worth cutting while other's arent.

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 2
    #28680044 -

:nodofunderstanding:

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #28680055 -

I appreciate the advice to look at lab SOP rather than other growers.

And I do use alcohol and a lot of the things you mentioned.  I don't change clothes or shower, mostly because I know my clothes aren't sanitary and that my bathroom and hallway on the way to my hood aren't clean.

But, I suppose it would be better to remove dead skin etc, so there's less shit to flake off anyway.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (02/28/24 07:08 PM)

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: tree frog] * 4
    #28680303 -

Auto-Summary
Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is an effective disinfectant against a wide range of microorganisms due to its production of destructive hydroxyl free radicals. Concentrations of 6% to 25% can act as chemical sterilants, with 7.5% hydrogen peroxide showing mycobactericidal activity. Commercially available 3% hydrogen peroxide is effective on inanimate surfaces, but its corrosive nature and long exposure times limit its use in laboratories. Alcohol, particularly ethyl and isopropyl alcohol, is rapidly bactericidal and fungicidal, requiring less exposure time than hydrogen peroxide. Chlorine and chlorine compounds are the main components of bleach, with sodium hypochlorite being the most prevalent form. Chlorine's mechanism of inactivating microorganisms is not fully understood, but it may involve a combination of factors affecting proteins, cells, and DNA.

A note on Chemical Disinfectants:

Hydrogen peroxide/h2o2

Quote:
Published reports ascribe good germicidal activity to hydrogen peroxide and attest to its bactericidal, virucidal, sporicidal, and fungicidal properties.

Hydrogen peroxide is active against a wide range of microorganisms, including bacteria, yeasts, fungi, viruses, and spores. A 0.5% accelerated hydrogen peroxide demonstrated bactericidal and virucidal activity in 1 minute and mycobactericidal and fungicidal activity in 5 minutes.

Hydrogen peroxide works by producing destructive hydroxyl free radicals that can attack membrane lipids, DNA, and other essential cell components.

Concentrations of hydrogen peroxide from 6% to 25% show promise as chemical sterilants.The product marketed as a sterilant is a premixed, ready-to-use chemical that contains 7.5% hydrogen peroxide and 0.85% phosphoric acid (to maintain a low pH). The mycobactericidal activity of 7.5% hydrogen peroxide has been corroborated in a study showing the inactivation of multidrug-resistant M. tuberculosis after a 10-minute exposure.

Commercially available 3% hydrogen peroxide is a stable and effective disinfectant when used on inanimate surfaces. It has been used in concentrations from 3% to 6% for disinfecting soft contact lenses (e.g., 3% for 2–3 hrs) tonometer biprisms, ventilators, fabrics, and endoscopes.



H2o2 is an excellent sanitizer, at higher concentrations it's capable of producing
2-log reduction in the number of Acanthamoeba cysts in approximately 2 hours.

The primary issues associated with the use of h2o2 is the time exposure required to be highly effective, minimum exposure time is 1 minute, effectiveness increases with time. This means leaving the hydrogen peroxide in sufficient quantity in contact with surfaces, which brings us to the second issue;

Corrosion: h2o2 is pretty corrosive both to living cells and working surfaces. The exposure time required for effectiveness coupled with the corrosive nature of hydrogen peroxide limits the usage and efficacy for all but the most specific of applications and is for these reasons not deployed by laboratories for surfaces sanitization applications.

H2o2 is best used for the applications listed above.

Alcohol

Quote:
“Alcohol” refers to two water-soluble chemical compounds—ethyl alcohol and isopropyl alcohol—that have generally underrated germicidal characteristics.

These alcohols are rapidly bactericidal rather than bacteriostatic against vegetative forms of bacteria; they also are tuberculocidal, fungicidal, and virucidal but do not destroy bacterial spores. Their cidal activity drops sharply when diluted below 50% concentration, and the optimum bactericidal concentration is 60%–90% solutions in water (volume/volume)

The most feasible explanation for the antimicrobial action of alcohol is denaturation of proteins. This mechanism is supported by the observation that absolute ethyl alcohol, a dehydrating agent, is less bactericidal than mixtures of alcohol and water because proteins are denatured more quickly in the presence of water.



Unlike hydrogen peroxide, alcohol is rapidly bactericidal/fungicidal, requiring less exposure than h2o2 to effectively denature vegetative bacteria and fungal proteins. Alcohol is fast acting and quickly evaporates without the corrosive properties of hydrogen peroxide.

Alcohol is the common disinfectant used in laboratory settings for the above reasons, the characteristics of alcohols make them effective and convenient for sanitizing surfaces.

Chlorine and Chlorine Compounds/Bleach:

Quote:
The main chemical in bleach and chlorine is calcium hypochlorite. In bleach, about 5.25% of chlorine is present in each gallon, the remaining content is water and a small amount of salt that keeps the chlorine as a liquid. Chlorine contains calcium hypochlorite at a much higher rate.

Hypochlorites, the most widely used of the chlorine disinfectants, are available as liquid (e.g., sodium hypochlorite) or solid (e.g., calcium hypochlorite). The most prevalent chlorine products in the United States are aqueous solutions of 5.25%–6.15% sodium hypochlorite (see glossary), usually called household bleach.

The exact mechanism by which free chlorine destroys microorganisms has not been elucidated. Inactivation by chlorine can result from a number of factors: oxidation of sulfhydryl enzymes and amino acids; ring chlorination of amino acids; loss of intracellular contents; decreased uptake of nutrients; inhibition of protein synthesis; decreased oxygen uptake; oxidation of respiratory components; decreased adenosine triphosphate production; breaks in DNA; and depressed DNA synthesis. The actual microbicidal mechanism of chlorine might involve a combination of these factors or the effect of chlorine on critical sites.

Low concentrations of free available chlorine (e.g., HOCl, OCl–, and elemental chlorine-Cl2) have a biocidal effect on mycoplasma (25 ppm) and vegetative bacteria (<5 ppm) in seconds in the absence of an organic load.

Hypochlorites are widely used in healthcare facilities in a variety of settings.Inorganic chlorine solution is used for disinfecting tonometer heads and for spot-disinfection of countertops and floors.

Chlorine long has been used as the disinfectant in water treatment.



The above lists the appropriate applications and concentrations for h2o2, alcohols, and bleach.

Source: Center for Disease Control

https://www.cdc.gov/infectioncontrol/guidelines/disinfection/disinfection-methods/chemical.html#

Perhaps this is helpful:shrug:?

Tldr= use alcohol for working surfaces; bleach for floors, rooms, tents.

Perhaps use h2o2 for disinfecting wild field specimens :shrug:

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28680636 -

god damn im glad youre back.  Im tired.

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: BeefExtreme]
    #28680639 -

Stipe-n Cap in your area :rockon:

I love the fact that this community exists and I consider having discovered it a gift of life, even though I'm more of a passive reader than an active poster.

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28680704 -

Stipe-n Cap said:
Perhaps this is helpful:shrug:?

Tldr= use alcohol for working surfaces; bleach for floors, rooms, tents.

Perhaps use h2o2 for disinfecting wild field specimens :shrug:




Oh it’s helpful and I couldn’t agree more as this is already exactly what I do. Except I use h2o2 as well for domestic specimens. The one area I still lack absolute success in is my spawn. As anyone could argue is what’ll make you or break you in this field. With bad spawn carried over to substrate, only risks a fruit in my eyes, which I why I proceed with caution.

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: PhenoDreamers] * 1
    #28680735 -

I'm still sus of any cultures started in front of your old heater filter 'flowhood'. Are you struggling with new genetic lines too, Supa?  Since getting a real hood. Or just your older stuff?

I can come up and take a look at your grain prep one of these weekends once I get caught up on homework too, brother.  But if you're washing, rinsing, properly hydrating, venting for 15 minutes, and PCing for 2 hours...  I'm not convinced that it's your grains.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: tree frog]
    #28680746 -

I was able to narrow down my grain issues to not rinsing my grains.. rookie mistake



I also noticed that shaking my spawn vs not shaking has led to MUCH better spawn. I hardly have bad spawn anymore but still could always use work.

I know you love my old diy hood which is why I’ve been saving it for you to have 😂 but absolutely you can always stop by and check my process. I did recently switch to feed corn though and it’s been the bees knees so far!

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: PhenoDreamers] * 2
    #28680749 -

its a rookie mistake to think its unrinsed grains. you can colonize the dust in the bag if you are clean.

but why use feed corn?

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: mushboy]
    #28680756 -

Stipe last night in the ask quick questions, get very detailed answers thread.

Quote:
The pressurized steam makes contact with load surfaces, penetrating voids to condense and make contact with microorganisms. While purging is necessary to penetrate voids in the media and to achieve sterilization temps, clean/rinsed grains are required to take full advantage of these mechanisms. An overburden of filth not only increases bioburden but prevents contact with the grains surface where CFUs (colony forming units) reside.
If steam didn't penetrate the load, it wouldn't transfer latent heat to the surfuce upon which it condenses to denature the DNA of microorganisms. (Where voids are present)




Emphasis mine.

edit:  He was also using oats for horses.  And they have that chaff on them still, as well as a bunch of added minerals.  In other words, I'm sure washing and rinsing is more important with certain grains than others, and was especially important with his material.  I do it for everything personally.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (02/29/24 09:41 AM)

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: mushboy]
    #28680761 -

It’s not a rookie mistake  considering I change only one variable at a time until I have solid results. Rinsing IN FACT has given me by far the most solid results

Thank you tree frog.

And I’m using Feed corn because it’s 10 bucks per 50 pounds versus 20 bucks for whole oats. Plus the colonization times have been much faster! Proper hydration has been the trickiest thing to get down so it’s still a work in progress. Not only that but my just sketchiest of grains have been sent with zero contaminations even when a good 1/3 of them have been bursted. It’s pretty amazing honestly

Edited by PhenoDreamers (02/29/24 09:47 AM)

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: tree frog]
    #28680767 -

:shrug:

well if you science you can prove just about anything:snub:

i always blame technique before dusty grains. ive used dirty ass grains too many times i guess.

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