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Re: The Entire Beginner Area Is Hazing for Noobs [Re: HelloImBob]
    #28633626 -

HelloImBob said:
.....Love you guys, don't think that I'm not glad for progress and steps in the right direction. I just feel lost at the moment.


I guess the way I see it is that many people have blazed a path and established some great techniques, advocated for a scientific approach, etc. And the things they developed and promoted which stood the test of time are still with us. But there's also a lot of extraneous stuff that people have just sort of figured out wasn't necessary, or was just a hot-take. Things like, for instance: gypsum, plastic petris as the only viable option for mycological work, the need to darken the bottom of your tub, colonizing in the dark, etc.

I don't see this stuff as devolving into "just do blah." I see it more as "this parameter/additive/recipe has been proven not to matter so much, as long as your sterile work is good"

Anyone who talks shit about what was going on 20, 30 years ago just doesn't know. That said, some things will inevitably prove to be pointless over time, while new pathways open up. Once upon a time, coir and sterilite tubs were unknown, and PFtek yet to be invented. Doesn't mean I feel a need to go full retro and top-fruit all my quart jars!


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Edited by B Traven (01/24/24 06:05 PM)

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Baba Yaga] * 3
    #28633662 -

HelloImBob said:
Not trying to be an ass and not directed specifically at this post because it's true shroomery is the place to learn. I can't be thankful enough for this place, I was able to learn so much from so many people before this stuff was common place, before youtube and reddit.

Shroomery holds a special place in my heart/life that wouldn't be the same without it.

Makes me wonder how us old timers ever had any success back in the day before all these new changes came to be.

I do find it kind of funny that people act like a decade ago people didn't grow huge tubs with giant flushes started from their own spore prints without the aid of agar using random ass ultrasonic humidifiers modified to connect to PVC pipes into fruiting tubs.

Obviously it's great to improve on methods and help newbies from making small mistakes that can be frustrating and cost a lot of time.

Sure simple is better and easier overall but we had some revolutionary people blazing trails into uncharted territory all trying to figure out the best ways to make their grows unique and special to them while also posting it for others benefit or glory.

I guess it's just kind of sad that it feels like a cookie cutter shroomery where everybody just follows the few basic new teks instead of trying to be original and experimenting like a science lab, but how original can you be after so many years of progress at the same time...Simpsons did it....simpsons did it! (south park)

I know times have changed around here but I still feel a lot if this stuff is just a joke for the people that don't know any better.

Maybe I'm just behind in the times and still love RRs let's grow mushrooms videos and professor fanticus for bringing us pf-tek, without all of the outdated stuff today we wouldn't be where we are today.

It just gets old to see so many posts say that's outdated like it didn't work in the past instead of being not the most efficient or reliable way to do things.

Sorry about my rant it's just hard to catch up after being gone for so long it's a little overwhelming at first. That's not anybody's fault but my own, life leads us in different directions at times. You can plan any way you want but it doesn't mean it will do any good. Sometimes it's your own mistakes that get in the way other times it's things out of your control.

I feel like the main character from Idiotocracy still (not sure) if this for real.

I probably need to find president Comacho for a pardon because I'm sure I'm gonna upset some people being behind in the times lol...

Love you guys, don't think that I'm not glad for progress and steps in the right direction. I just feel lost at the moment.


As a newcomer to this hobby--and as a person who does not really respond to appeals of authority (i.e. "Just follow the tek because experienced people say to do it")--I find the explanations for why something is outdated to be lacking.

Let's take gypsum, for example. Any time "I mixed gypsum in my..." appears in a comment, someone inevitably replies with, "That's outdated info. Stick to the most recent 2 or 3 years of posts. Anyway, your spawn looks bacterial AF."

There are probably other uses for gypsum, but the two I've come across most frequently are:
1) As a bulk supplement to provide some sort of nutrition
2) An addition to grain to help reduce clumping

I'll accept that gypsum is not a necessary nutrient for fruiting. Does it help at all? Not sure, but I don't really care. I grew sufficiently-sized fruits, so I'm happy omitting it.

What about the second potential reason? If adding gypsum reduces the exterior moisture content to reduce clumping, might it also help to inhibit bacterial growth. One of the reasons that PF Tek works so well in the contamination department is that the BRF/verm mix creates a surface that is difficult for bacteria to navigate, so maybe the same concept applies to gypsum-coated grain.

Assuming, for sake of the argument, that gypsum-coated grains reduce the severity of contamination, then saying that adding gypsum is "outdated" is incorrect. Sure, most people probably don't need it, but there might be others that could benefit from an additional layer of protection. Again, this might not be true, I'm using it for sake of example.

My argument is that information cannot be outdated; it can be accurate or inaccurate.

Assuming the content below is accurate, these would be examples of helpful and meaningful replies:
  • "Adding gypsum to substrate does not provide any additional nutrient that significantly improves fruiting. This came about because some species need gypsum to grow and it was incorrectly applied to Psilocybe cultivation."
  • "Adding gypsum to grain may help reduce bacterial contamination because it reduces exterior moisture content, but if you are following sterile procedure properly and your plate culture is clean, this will likely have no impact."


Replies that I, personally, find lacking:
  • "Don't add gypsum to anything, it's outdated info."
  • "Yeah, nobody around here does that anymore. A lot has changed in the last year or two."


I'd like to reiterate that my assertions about the impact of gypsum addition are not based on  any research. They helped to form my argument, which might be terrible in its own right.


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πŸ…£πŸ…”πŸ…πŸ…œ  πŸ…’πŸ…›πŸ…˜πŸ…πŸ…–πŸ…¦πŸ…‘πŸ…πŸ…Ÿ
LAGM 2.024

Serial system ID data

Edited by OctopusDisco (01/24/24 07:51 PM)

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: OctopusDisco] * 2
    #28633697 -

Ok,how's this:

I used that shit for years. CVG, gypsum in the grain water, the whole nine.

And then stopped. Initially just because I ran out and then said "eh, fuck it."

Nothing changed, except everything was less of a hassle.

I see gypsum as an anti-clumping/puddling agent the same way I see vermiculite as a coir additive: pointless. It's not especially difficult to dial in your moisture contents and soak/boil/PC times to achieve proper results for your given materials.

Maybe gypsum helps retard bacterial growth. But to be honest, my objective is just to not have any in the first place. Cleaning up or discontinuing dirty cultures is my first priority.

If I got all bent out of shape about how people word stuff around here, I'd lose my mind. Sometimes you just gotta squint a little. But the reality is that many people report ditching the gypsum, and then suffering zero issues as a result. So yes, if you believe those reports,then the idea that it's a necessity is an outdated/debunked one.


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Edited by B Traven (01/24/24 07:10 PM)

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: B Traven] * 2
    #28633766 -

You and I are on the same page, B. I have no interest in gypsum, nor the conversation around gypsum, for that matter. My only point is that I, personally, desire to understand why things are the way they are. When Teks are updated, there is most likely a reason why things changed, and I only wish that the reasons hitched a ride with the changes.

I only brought up gypsum as an example to illustrate my point. Apologies if that was unclear in the original post. I tend to be long-winded, but I'm trying to do better.


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πŸ…£πŸ…”πŸ…πŸ…œ  πŸ…’πŸ…›πŸ…˜πŸ…πŸ…–πŸ…¦πŸ…‘πŸ…πŸ…Ÿ
LAGM 2.024

Serial system ID data

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: OctopusDisco] * 2
    #28633788 -

I understand you very well. You won't be able to guarantee to always get a proper explanation other than a fact, but there's nothing stopping you from doing what is proven to work and experiment on the side. I also feel that trying something and seeing the result is first of all fun if you can afford it and secondly invaluable experience.


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The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Shroomery

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: B Traven]
    #28633811 -

B Traven said:
I see gypsum as an anti-clumping/puddling agent the same way I see vermiculite as a coir additive: pointless.


Haven't found gypsum to be doing anything relevant that I can tell but I like throwing some dry vermiculite in my shit on the rare occasion that it's already spawned and I realize afterwards it's on the wetter side. Not that I wouldn't do it with dry coir if I had it available in the proper state anyway.

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: OctopusDisco]
    #28634037 -

OctopusDisco said:
You and I are on the same page, B. I have no interest in gypsum, nor the conversation around gypsum, for that matter. My only point is that I, personally, desire to understand why things are the way they are. When Teks are updated, there is most likely a reason why things changed, and I only wish that the reasons hitched a ride with the changes.

I only brought up gypsum as an example to illustrate my point. Apologies if that was unclear in the original post. I tend to be long-winded, but I'm trying to do better.


I hear you, no apologies needed. I guess my point was that practices which don't necessarily cause any problems in a grow can persist due to simple inertia and confirmation bias, even though they also don't help. So then there's not really a clear "why" to their abandonment, which makes any pro or con arguments kind of pointless. As I said, there wasn't a compelling reason for me to stop using gypsum, I just sort of did. I have my theories as to why something like gypsum is unnecessary, and also why it was adopted in the first place, but I have no idea if they're right or not.

And that also, yes, certain quick reductionist phrases make my eyes twitch,too. But sometimes you just gotta suss out the underlying information...

Edit: The thing about Teks, especially now that there's so much information available, is that they're really just people writing up how they do things. I personally haven't read a spawning or grain prep Tek in years. I have my way of doing things that I've settled into over time, and that's it. If I were to write it all up, it'd be 10 times longer if I included all the things I've tweaked and abandoned over time, and even longer than that if I tried to explain exactly why.


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Edited by B Traven (01/25/24 06:53 AM)

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: MrJong] * 2
    #28634057 -

MrJong said:
B Traven said:
I see gypsum as an anti-clumping/puddling agent the same way I see vermiculite as a coir additive: pointless.


Haven't found gypsum to be doing anything relevant that I can tell but I like throwing some dry vermiculite in my shit on the rare occasion that it's already spawned and I realize afterwards it's on the wetter side. Not that I wouldn't do it with dry coir if I had it available in the proper state anyway.


Yeah, it's definitely useful for that scenario, but I finally just started making my coir on the dry side. If I hit a dry patch, I can bust it up and mix it with the rest of the bucket or add a tiny bit more water. But I usually just have multiple buckets to draw from, and if the bottom of one is a little dry then I can combine it with the wetter material at the top of the next one. In general, though, I've noticed that slightly dry coir causes me fewer problems than slightly wet coir. Since I've switched to the "dry side" combined with higher spawn ratios and compressed substrates, I still get lots of condensation on the lid and walls, no stalled growth, etc.

I believe field capacity involves less moisture than most people think. And that water is always easier to add than remove/soak up.

I used the word "pointless," and not "useless," because I have no doubt that gypsum helps keep grain frm clumping and vermiculite helps absorb excess water. It's just that I see them like training wheels on a bike: if you don't know how to dial in your conditions, then they'll help you get started. But then, eventually, they'll enable you to avoid honing a useful skill. And finally, when you do fully develop that skill, they'll be a pointless addition that just sort of gets in the way.

Your handful of verm into a wet tub is one thing. You're still seeing the problem you're correcting, and trying to avoid it in the future. So, presumably, one day you'll just find that you haven't dipped into the verm supply in a good while. But the classic CVG recipe, in my opinion, just leads to confusion, because people never get to see what plain hydrated coir should look like, or exactly how much water is involved.


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Edited by B Traven (01/25/24 06:32 AM)

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Blueberry Muffin]
    #28634068 -

Blueberry Muffin said:
I understand you very well. You won't be able to guarantee to always get a proper explanation other than a fact, but there's nothing stopping you from doing what is proven to work and experiment on the side. I also feel that trying something and seeing the result is first of all fun if you can afford it and secondly invaluable experience.


100%

The only two things I'm really trying to caution people against when discussing these sorts of things are the Absolute Shopping List and reinventing the wheel.

You know, when you get started with a new project or recipe, and you don't quite know what you're doing, but you got a list of shit to buy from allrecipes or wikihow or whatever? Things like gypsum still worm their way onto those lists.

And the other tendency when starting is "eh, this is probably all just people geeking out over minutiae. I'll just squirt spores into grain jars in open air, and then devote way too much time to designing the perfect automated fruiting setup"

I think it's inevitable that one will fall into both of those traps to some degree. I definitely went hard on both of them at the outset. I'd just rather see people put that new project energy into scrounging together agar containers and whatnot. And if they're gonna blow money on "must-haves", I'd rather see them buy pyrex petris and extra 5 gallon buckets.

Playing around with stuff is great, as long as you understand the context. And realize that we're talking about detritovores here. Their needs truly are quite simple.


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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: B Traven] * 5
    #28634243 -

Great discussion, gang. I am on the "why" side of things as well. I do try to follow teks closely to get results and then start making deviations to see if there is improvement. Frequent fails and a lot of learning are the results.

When I write up how I do things, I do try to give a tldr of how and then a detailed instruction of why I do what I do and how I got there. I also try to gather a lot of comparative data <1> before calling something a tek and publishing it. It is easy to get attached to a pet theory and then present some data that seems to prove it. But good science involves eliminating other variables, lots of data points and reproducible results. When I am just floating a theory <2> <3>, I want to be up front about it, get some discussion generated, and then decide if testing is warranted.

I see lots of frustration about contradictory information and gate keeping. But when you get down to it, people are just trying to help with the best information that they have and most of our data is crowd sourced and evolving. So definitive methods and reasons are still in their infancy. A lot of people on here get tired of hearing the same "new" theories presented as fact or old methods presented as necessary and just say "won't work", quote the herd group think of the day, or go for levity with sarcasm, poking fun, or abrupt remarks. I believe this very thread's title is a bit of tongue in cheek provocation. But it has a ton of great updated information and discussion.

I don't think anyone is saying that the people doing the research before us were dumb because of what they did. On the contrary, we just keep trying to find and share improvements in efficiency and effectiveness to be counted among them.

My gummy tek has changed a couple of times and needs a new update. I have had great results and wanted to share them. And I keep trying new things and suggestions to see if they are better. I like to share what I learn as I go in the discussion threads. When I think there is enough improvement, I update the tek. Often the new instructions contradict the old ones. Doesn't that mean the old ones were wrong or didn't work. Just that I found something that works better for me and should for others, too.

Okay, end of novel. For now...

Edited by ReverendMyc (01/25/24 10:30 AM)

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #28634643 -

Thanks for the reminder, time for a refresher on your gummy tek

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #28634732 -

Im just here to thank B Traven once more for expanding my vocabulary with "detritivore" and to publicly acknowledge him as my intellectual superior.

that is all. carry on.  good shit guys.


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Need a lift?

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: BeefExtreme]
    #28664784 -

ok so old timer coming back after a 10 year or so vacation and just read through this entire thread so here is what ive learned and am requesting any links to the proper now relevant teks.

i use to do the CVGP now i am to only do just Coir

i use to pasteurize bulk now no need

i use to fruit in marthas with foggers and monos with big and small holes and filter disks glued over holes now you just use a tub how you get it from the store no holes needed?

So i have APE, Hillbilly, Enigma, and JMF grain from clean LC doing its thing and i probably have a few weeks to figure our my substrate and tub setups any links to the proper new 2024 way of spawning to bulk is much needed seeing how this entire thread just nuked all my knowledge i had on this subject lol fml time to teach this old dog new tricks..

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: more4u2c] * 2
    #28665260 -

read the hitchhikers guide to the shroomery my friend. you will feel confident.  holler if u need anything


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Need a lift?

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: BeefExtreme]
    #28665286 -

Slants are outdated.

Stasis storage is easier and better for long term storage.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28161262/page/3


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And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: tree frog] * 1
    #28665332 -

Ever try dried colonized grain?


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:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: mushboy]
    #28665394 -

I've stored some but haven't revived anything.  Not confident in my technique so been using wedges in sterilized dH2O.

What's the best way to dry them?  Just put the lid back on and fish them out later for long term storage when you want the jar and space?


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And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (02/18/24 11:49 AM)

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: tree frog]
    #28665398 -

That’s basically what I’ve done.

Or use the scrap grains and keep em sealed up or put in a petri while being sterile of course and put to agar when needed.


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:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

Edited by mushboy (02/18/24 11:54 AM)

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: mushboy]
    #28665407 -

I think I'll be sterilizing some empty slime cups next agar run.

Do they need refrigeration?

I have a dedicated fridge.  Just curious where they do best.  I also have a lot of warm weather actives running.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: tree frog] * 1
    #28665424 -

No refrigeration but I’ve only stored for a year or so. I got some from almost 3yrs ago I should break em out.


--------------------
:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

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