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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27750667 -

Brian Jones said:
Speaking of Nicholas II, Putin is going to get lumped in with him now; the biggest losers in Russian history.


Do you want to make a bet on this?  Even if Russia agrees to give up Crimea, the people there will never agree to go back to Ukraine.  That's why I'm surprised the US is still hoping to take control, er I mean hoping Ukraine takes control.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27750749 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The Ecstatic said:
Zelensky isn’t a US puppet dude you shouldn’t believe everything you see on RT. What happened was Ukraine wanted a centrist in power that didn’t lean too far either way, so they elected Zelensky.


Actually, you're right so far.  Zelensky WAS elected to make peace with the ethnic Russian territories.  Both sides will agree to this, so I don't think this point is really in question.

But the Far Right has been pushing for war, we've seen plenty of evidence for this and they claim they have been working with the US. 

It's not about believing the NY Times (that we know lies all the time) or RT (which no one has yet found any fake news from), it's about looking at ALL the available evidence from all sides and making logical conclusions from the facts that are hard to dispute.


Logical conclusions like: the stateside propaganda arm of the Russian government has never lied.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27750768 -

I never said "the stateside propaganda arm of the Russian government has never lied".  I said "no one has yet found any fake news from (rt.com)", and I also said we should look "at ALL the available evidence from all sides and making logical conclusions from the facts that are hard to dispute".

You and I actually agree about MOST things; I'm confused by your make believe point here to try and put me down?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27750858 -

I just don’t understand the logic behind acknowledging the NYT as propaganda but not RT, other than to serve your argument that Russia is just a smol bean trying to do their best against an onslaught of Western aggression.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27750968 -

The Ecstatic said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Is it your opinion that the new Far Right government would have allowed a peaceful referendum calling for Crimea to split from Ukraine and rejoin Russia???


Of course not, but that’s a consequence of losing your own puppet regime via Yanukovych. Being able to control decisions like that is why both the US and Russia are vying for control of that state. You can obviously argue that soft power is just as coercive as overt power but then we’re just back to some philosophical debate.


Given that you agree the new Government wouldn't have allowed for a peaceful referendum, what other option was there for the referendum besides Russia stepping in to ensure it was peaceful (for their own purposes)?


The Ecstatic said:
I just don’t understand the logic behind acknowledging the NYT as propaganda but not RT, other than to serve your argument that Russia is just a smol bean trying to do their best against an onslaught of Western aggression.


The logic is that the NY Times tends to spread propaganda by outright lying, while RT tends to spread propaganda by providing information the mainstream news won't cover.  That's a pretty huge difference to me.

But even if we assume rt occasionally lies, I still said that we should look at ALL available evidence from ALL sides and make logical conclusions from the facts that are hard to dispute.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27751028 -

There’s no such thing as a “peaceful” vote for sovereignty in a nation essentially in a civil war, or even one with considerable domestic upheaval. They’re often discredited, because they’re always rigged to some degree. Hell, even our elections are rigged.

Besides, haven’t we agreed that elections are meaningless and don’t actually represent the will of the people? Biden’s approval rating sits at 40%. Either way, this idea that the Crimean vote represents something meaningful and therefore is the law of the land represents a fundamental misunderstanding how power works. It does not matter what the majority think, and not just because they’re easily manipulated. Maybe things will shake out unexpectedly, but i don’t expect any significant territorial concessions by Ukraine in the peace process, and not because of any fundamental facts about how it democratically came to exist. The decisions will be based on the fact that the powerful countries are backing Ukraine and that the narrative is set against the sinister Russian aggressor. As you’ve noted, Putin maintains substantial popularity at home, so logic and free elections would seem to indicate he’ll stay in power for a while. But we know what often happens to incredibly popular leaders when they cross the wrong minority. The referendums in the East provide the Kremlin with reasonable cover to advance their interests, but it’s not like they can go to the judge at the UN and prove that democracy means that Donetsk and Luhansk and Crimea are now Russian/independent territories, that is not how the world works.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27751030 -

Your definition of mainstream news seems awfully egocentric.


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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: christopera]
    #27751066 -

christopera said:
Your definition of mainstream news seems awfully egocentric.


What is my definition of mainstream news?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27751082 -

The Ecstatic said:
There’s no such thing as a “peaceful” vote for sovereignty in a nation essentially in a civil war


Even if it's... peaceful?  :shrug:

The Ecstatic said:
They’re often discredited, because they’re always rigged to some degree. Hell, even our elections are rigged.


I keep showing sources showing that the Crimean election results were about right.  I'm not sure what makes it "rigged to some degree"?

The Ecstatic said:
Besides, haven’t we agreed that elections are meaningless and don’t actually represent the will of the people? Biden’s approval rating sits at 40%.


Yes, we've agreed they're meaningless in the US.  Worldwide, I'm not as sure.

The Ecstatic said:
Either way, this idea that the Crimean vote represents something meaningful and therefore is the law of the land represents a fundamental misunderstanding how power works.


I've already told you I agree the referendum was held so that Russia could save its military base in Crimea.  But if the Crimean people are also in favor of leaving a non-elected Government that hates ethic-Russians, more power to them.

The Ecstatic said:
It does not matter what the majority think, and not just because they’re easily manipulated. Maybe things will shake out unexpectedly, but i don’t expect any significant territorial concessions by Ukraine in the peace process, and not because of any fundamental facts about how it democratically came to exist. The decisions will be based on the fact that the powerful countries are backing Ukraine and that the narrative is set against the sinister Russian aggressor. As you’ve noted, Putin maintains substantial popularity at home, so logic and free elections would seem to indicate he’ll stay in power for a while. But we know what often happens to incredibly popular leaders when they cross the wrong minority. The referendums in the East provide the Kremlin with reasonable cover to advance their interests, but it’s not like they can go to the judge at the UN and prove that democracy means that Donetsk and Luhansk and Crimea are now Russian/independent territories, that is not how the world works.


I never said people can just vote to leave their country.  I said this appears to be different, because their democratically elected government was ousted.

If communists took over the American government via a non-democratic process, do you think the whole country is obligated to obey the new Government?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27751093 -

Communists wouldn’t be allowed to take over the American government, be it democratically or otherwise, that’s my point.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27751099 -

The Ecstatic said:
Communists wouldn’t be allowed to take over the American government, be it democratically or otherwise, that’s my point.


Wait, do you think the Far Right was "allowed" to take over the democratically elected Government of Ukraine?

Maybe I'm confused about your point.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27751301 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
christopera said:
Your definition of mainstream news seems awfully egocentric.


What is my definition of mainstream news?


Anything that pleases your world view.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27751307 -

I’m just saying there are no rules it doesn’t matter if Russia did everything right or not it would not matter, so why not play dirty? and that’s what they’re doing, it’s what everyone is doing. That’s all I want acknowledged here.  Even if the referendum wasn’t massaged to Russia’s favor, it ultimately does not matter. They got Crimea because they had the power to, and that’s largely the bet they’re placing with this current conflict. Has nothing to do with the will of the people or whether Ukraine does or doesn’t deserve to be partitioned across ethnic lines.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27751309 -

Bingo

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: christopera]
    #27751364 -

christopera said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What is my definition of mainstream news?


Anything that pleases your world view.


Nope, not even close.

I define mainstream news as news coming from the 'Big Five' media companies:

1. Comcast (NBC, CNBC, MSNBC, etc)
2. The Walt Disney Company (ABC, etc)
3. News Corp/Fox Corp (Fox News, Fox Business, Wall Street Journal, New York Post, etc)
4. WarnerMedia (CNN, HLN, etc)
5. Paramount (CBS, etc)


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27751373 -

The Ecstatic said:
I’m just saying there are no rules it doesn’t matter if Russia did everything right or not it would not matter, so why not play dirty? and that’s what they’re doing, it’s what everyone is doing. That’s all I want acknowledged here.


I might acknowledge it if you can explain it.

The Ecstatic said:
Even if the referendum wasn’t massaged to Russia’s favor, it ultimately does not matter.


Please explain what you mean by "massaged to Russia's favor"

The Ecstatic said:
They got Crimea because they had the power to, and that’s largely the bet they’re placing with this current conflict. Has nothing to do with the will of the people or whether Ukraine does or doesn’t deserve to be partitioned across ethnic lines.


I agree they got it because they had the power to get it.  But they got it without a fight because 95% of the Crimean people wanted to go back to Russia.

Edit:  And I KNOW there will be a MAJOR fight if Crimea goes back to Ukraine.  How do I know?  Because almost everyone I spoke with made that very clear (even I though I didn't ask them)

Doesn't that matter?  Do you no longer feel the will of the people is relevant?


Are you really arguing Crimea should go to the most powerful country?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/25/22 10:14 PM)

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27751380 -

I don't see a few players on your list:

VICE (not my first pick, but it's obvious)
Journeyman Productions (my favorite)
France 24 English
DW News
WION

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #27751381 -

ballsalsa said:
Bingo


Couldn’t have said it better myself.


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Give me Liberty caps or give me Death caps.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27751646 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The Ecstatic said:
I’m just saying there are no rules it doesn’t matter if Russia did everything right or not it would not matter, so why not play dirty? and that’s what they’re doing, it’s what everyone is doing. That’s all I want acknowledged here.


I might acknowledge it if you can explain it.

The Ecstatic said:
Even if the referendum wasn’t massaged to Russia’s favor, it ultimately does not matter.


Please explain what you mean by "massaged to Russia's favor"

The Ecstatic said:
They got Crimea because they had the power to, and that’s largely the bet they’re placing with this current conflict. Has nothing to do with the will of the people or whether Ukraine does or doesn’t deserve to be partitioned across ethnic lines.


I agree they got it because they had the power to get it.  But they got it without a fight because 95% of the Crimean people wanted to go back to Russia.

Edit:  And I KNOW there will be a MAJOR fight if Crimea goes back to Ukraine.  How do I know?  Because almost everyone I spoke with made that very clear (even I though I didn't ask them)

Doesn't that matter?  Do you no longer feel the will of the people is relevant?


Are you really arguing Crimea should go to the most powerful country?


First of all, the US ended the Cold War without a war, does this mean ~95% of Soviet citizens wanted their nation toppled? Hardly.

Second: there’s a big difference between an ‘ought’ and an ‘is.’

The US is so powerful it brought down the USSR, but that doesn’t mean they ought to have.

It doesn’t matter what I think about what the will of the Crimean people is, where their alliegiances should lie, or whether they should have the autonomy for self determination. They don’t. Period. If you wanna discuss the philosophy of anarchism PM shiva, but we live in a world run by capitalist states.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27751681 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
christopera said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What is my definition of mainstream news?


Anything that pleases your world view.


Nope, not even close.

I define mainstream news as news coming from the 'Big Five' media companies:

1. Comcast (NBC, CNBC, MSNBC, etc)
2. The Walt Disney Company (ABC, etc)
3. News Corp/Fox Corp (Fox News, Fox Business, Wall Street Journal, New York Post, etc)
4. WarnerMedia (CNN, HLN, etc)
5. Paramount (CBS, etc)



I am sure there are plenty of non 'Big Five' media companies that are producing mainstream media propaganda. It's kind of a silly way of determining who is trust worthy, but it fits your defined narrative so that I guess it works for you.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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