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 Yonatin
Registered: 09/05/17
Posts: 654
Loc: 
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 Lophophora Williamsii Grow. 
#25765582 - 01/24/19 02:27 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hey guys, I am starting my Lophophora Williamsii grow and thought there is no better place to document it than here. I did a mushroom grow a while back and got really good feedback so I wanted to share this grow with you guys too.
I got my seeds yesterday in the mail and started them in a mix of 1 part cactus and succulent dirt that I sieved, 1 part perlite, and 1/2 part river rocks. I soaked the dirt in purified water and microwaved it for 3 minutes stirring it half way through. Once it cooled I misted the dirt with more purified water until it drained out of the drainage holes I made in the container and then I sowed the seeds. After sowing I misted again to help push the seeds down a little in the dirt. I placed them under a grow light and put the light about 5" away from the containers. The heat from the light keeps them at about 81°F, I am getting a heating mat tomorrow and once I get it I will adjust the light so that they stay around that temp. The mat and lights are on a 18 hours on 6 hours off schedule and it drops to about 55°F at night. That's about as far as I've made it so far and I plan on posting updates and any questions I have. Any advice is welcomed and I look forward to sharing the results.
Here are a few pics of what I'm working with.
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 Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 3,398
Loc: the Neitherlands 
Last seen: 8 months, 4 days
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Yonatin]
#25766846 - 01/25/19 05:51 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nice setup!
I would advise against microwaving.. if you effectively sterilize your soil you open it up to advantageous contams. There are normally bacteria in soil that help protect it by keeping soil life stable so you don't want to kill this protection.
You could get away with it if you only pasteurize and can allow left over bacteria to make a comeback.
The river rocks seem way too coarse to be useful with seedlings at this stage. Match the particle size with the plant size IMO so that they can actually navigate, hold onto, retreat, etc. I guess depending on how coarse your material is, you could get away with coarser stuff lower in the container since the plants will have grown before they get that deep and it may help drainage.
You will probably still be okay like this ^^ i am just not sure if the stones will have the right effect. If they warm up from lighting etc that may be good tho but i would still make em smaller personally.
I like your commitment  but sometimes it can be a little too much, i am still learning that the hard way.
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Johnny Dont
500 Don'ts of Knife Safety
Registered: 04/24/14
Posts: 1,830
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Solipsis]
#25766861 - 01/25/19 06:02 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good luck. I find temperature swings to be beneficial with cacti. I don't use a heating mat, I find my lights generate enough heat. I used to sterilize or cook my soil. Now I don't do anything to it. I find having a copper fungicide and h2o2 helpful in case of mold.
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I have left life and loves behind me, to be blown about as the sea desires, to have the freedom of the open air, and to be witness to the making of the world.
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 3,398
Loc: the Neitherlands
Last seen: 8 months, 4 days
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Johnny Dont]
#25767191 - 01/25/19 09:04 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes i use (other) fungicide as well, preemptively. The idea being that the bacteria live.
Indeed temp swings are supposed to be good, I think they also happen in nature in their habitat? So yea i just switch my heat mat off at night.
I do especially use a heat mat during winter even long after germination.. I try to avoid them feeling the winter and my lophs and trichs seem to want a lot of water and of course warmth helps for the wetness to not linger. The seedlings were turning colors that are not ideal but more water and warmth seems to help.
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Yonatin
Registered: 09/05/17
Posts: 654
Loc:
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Solipsis]
#25767313 - 01/25/19 10:15 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, if I were to mix the dirt again I would leave out the stones. I mixed them in and then realized they were probably useless, the idea was to help drainage and to provide a more airy soil. As for the the microwave, do you think I should start more seeds in non microwaved dirt? I was torn between microwaving the dirt to begin with because I know that a complete sterilization could have the opposite effect sometimes and it actually helps the bad bacteria. I have some fungicide ready to go if I start to see some white fuzz though.
Also about the the heating mat, the ambient temperature of the room is in the low 60's. I was going to use it on the same timer the lights and allow the temps to drop when the lights are off to simulate the natural environment. Do you think that will work or do you think the temps are high enough on the bottom of the trays to not matter? I was under the impression that Lophs needed some what higher temps to germinate and right now my only concern is the bottom of the trays get too cold.
I appreciate the feed back, it's nice to hear from someone that has grown them to help ease my mind over the small details.
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Johnny Dont
500 Don'ts of Knife Safety
Registered: 04/24/14
Posts: 1,830
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Yonatin]
#25767382 - 01/25/19 10:34 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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As long as its above 45 at night they will do great, even a bit lower I'm sure would be fine. Having the lights and mat on the same timer shouldn't be a problem.
I have not noticed increased germination rates with higher or lower temps. Fresh seeds are always better, purchased seeds that are who know how old are always worse.
Honestly lophs are some of the easiest cacti to grow.
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I have left life and loves behind me, to be blown about as the sea desires, to have the freedom of the open air, and to be witness to the making of the world.
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 3,398
Loc: the Neitherlands
Last seen: 8 months, 4 days
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Johnny Dont]
#25767476 - 01/25/19 11:11 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yea i can't exactly prove that higher temps than room temp (20C) give a significantly higher germination rate, I just though so.
Sometimes if you see white fuzz you are too late if it starts with the seedlings rather than general damping off. I guess it's your call. The only issue i potentially see with fungicides at this point is how long they stay active and how to maintain if you are not yet growing under much drier conditions.
I have set the heating on the same timer before as the lights yeah.
My personal bet would be constant heating before germination and fluctuating after it seems you have germinated all or most (apparently), however i could be off and fluctuation might actually help with the germination too.
I don't know if you intentionally chose this time of year to sow but you could also just wait out the first 3 months of having em covered constantly and the soil moist before you start sowing even more cause you might be fine.
The thing is with microwaving to pasteurize is that you don't have very much control although i guess it's technically possible if the moistness of the soil is quite even, you mix the soil halfway through and check the temperature of the soil properly every time after you mix the soil and place back. To make sure you don't get too hot.
I don't know whether microwave may bust open bacterial cells even at or before that point or if you'd want to try to keep it warm for a while to complete the pasteurization.
Better seems to just do a more normal and better controlled pasteurization if you insist, perhaps on the reserved side. And never go above 90C or so with soil or supposedly toxic compounds are formed at least thats what i read.
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Yonatin
Registered: 09/05/17
Posts: 654
Loc:
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Solipsis]
#25768398 - 01/25/19 05:52 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Johnny Dont said:
As long as its above 45 at night they will do great, even a bit lower I'm sure would be fine. Having the lights and mat on the same timer shouldn't be a problem.
I have not noticed increased germination rates with higher or lower temps. Fresh seeds are always better, purchased seeds that are who know how old are always worse.
Honestly lophs are some of the easiest cacti to grow.
Ok, thanks. I have the mat and lights on a timer, and the mat is set to 81°F then it shuts off until it drops below. Once the timer goes off though it all shuts off for 6 hours at night and comes back on for 18 hours. I got these seeds online and don't know how fresh they are. I was told if they sink they are fresh, I put them in a cup of water and sowed the ones that sank.
Quote:
Solipsis said:
Yea i can't exactly prove that higher temps than room temp (20C) give a significantly higher germination rate, I just though so.
Sometimes if you see white fuzz you are too late if it starts with the seedlings rather than general damping off. I guess it's your call. The only issue i potentially see with fungicides at this point is how long they stay active and how to maintain if you are not yet growing under much drier conditions.
I have set the heating on the same timer before as the lights yeah.
My personal bet would be constant heating before germination and fluctuating after it seems you have germinated all or most (apparently), however i could be off and fluctuation might actually help with the germination too.
I don't know if you intentionally chose this time of year to sow but you could also just wait out the first 3 months of having em covered constantly and the soil moist before you start sowing even more cause you might be fine.
The thing is with microwaving to pasteurize is that you don't have very much control although i guess it's technically possible if the moistness of the soil is quite even, you mix the soil halfway through and check the temperature of the soil properly every time after you mix the soil and place back. To make sure you don't get too hot.
I don't know whether microwave may bust open bacterial cells even at or before that point or if you'd want to try to keep it warm for a while to complete the pasteurization.
Better seems to just do a more normal and better controlled pasteurization if you insist, perhaps on the reserved side. And never go above 90C or so with soil or supposedly toxic compounds are formed at least thats what i read.
I haven't used the fungicide yet, I just have it in case I need it. I was told if you keep the lid closed on the containers then you can go a while before anything nasty starts growing in there. I have been checking the moisture levels everyday, so far they haven't needed a misting and look wet still.
I read the fluctuation helps with germination so I am going to try and see by having everything on a timer and let it drop in temps at night. My heating mat just came today so I hooked it up and I think I have everything where it needs to be. I will keep a close eye on it though over the next couple of days to make sure it doesn't get too hot in there. The mat I bought came with a probe to place in the dirt to read the temperature from there.
I did choose this time of year so that they can grow outside once they get bigger and it warms up, so that should be around June. I am just going to save the rest of the seeds though and try to sow them in the summer time outside. I still have more seeds on the way if the place ever sends them. I've been waiting 3 weeks and they haven't shipped yet and I'm starting to get impatient.
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Johnny Dont
500 Don'ts of Knife Safety
Registered: 04/24/14
Posts: 1,830
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Yonatin]
#25768424 - 01/25/19 06:03 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'd sow them all, what you got to loose
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I have left life and loves behind me, to be blown about as the sea desires, to have the freedom of the open air, and to be witness to the making of the world.
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Yonatin
Registered: 09/05/17
Posts: 654
Loc:
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Johnny Dont]
#25769932 - 01/26/19 11:44 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have 70 seeds started as of yesterday. I woke up today to see that 2 seeds have sprouted in the containers I started 3 days ago. I'm pretty stoked they are sprouting already. I will try and get a picture and post it, they are really small and I don't know how well they would show up in a picture.
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nube424
Registered: 12/03/17
Posts: 6,063
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Yonatin]
#25775424 - 01/28/19 07:10 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yea I second sowing them all. Ull have plenty of room in there still.
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Yonatin
Registered: 09/05/17
Posts: 654
Loc:
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: nube424]
#25788986 - 02/03/19 07:06 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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When they turn red does that mean the light is on too long or it’s too close? I know it means they are stressed but I forgot if it was time or distance of the light that’s the problem.
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nube424
Registered: 12/03/17
Posts: 6,063
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Yonatin]
#25789088 - 02/03/19 07:56 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Either too dry or too much light. What do u think the cause is? If its dry in there, thats why. Or if the lights too close, thats why.
Got pics?
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Yonatin
Registered: 09/05/17
Posts: 654
Loc:
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: nube424]
#25789153 - 02/03/19 08:29 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah this is what they look like. I think it was the light, because it was 5" or 6" away from the lid. The light had been a concern of mind since the beginning of the grow because the condensation wasn't forming on the tops of the lids as if it was being burned off by the lights. I've raised the lights to be about 18" away from the top and now the whole container has condensation forming around it.
Another question is how big of a threat is algae growing in the dirt already? I've scrapped some of it off the best I could. Some of it is growing really closely to the sprouts and I was wondering if it was a huge threat or not other than competing for resources with the seedlings.
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nube424
Registered: 12/03/17
Posts: 6,063
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Yonatin]
#25789158 - 02/03/19 08:33 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Idk it never hurt any of mine. What kind of light are u using? Mines only 3" away and they never turned red.. but I use led.
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Yonatin
Registered: 09/05/17
Posts: 654
Loc:
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: nube424]
#25789236 - 02/03/19 09:00 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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I’m using two T5 bulbs and they put off a little heat so I’ve moved them up to see if it helps. I was just wondering if 18 hours of light could be the cause? What was your light schedule?
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 3,398
Loc: the Neitherlands
Last seen: 8 months, 4 days
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Yonatin]
#25790290 - 02/04/19 11:26 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think generally redness is a matter of too much light, but a little pinkness is fine and probably a good sign (of sufficient light or slightly excessive) although it shouldn't get too extreme, dark or purple.
What I've also noticed is that you can get it more easily if they are not getting enough water (or some nutes) relative to how much light they are receiving.
I think what you are seeing is a change in pigment concentration to adjust for the light it can handle, or the light spectrum. Also not sure if anthocyanin type pigments help to block UV?
If i put plants in very blue light (like a led board including pure blue) some species of plants are more likely to become purple, I guess in response to the spectrum.
I wouldn't have used such coarse perlite. They are not adult cacti. Even for adults a majority of perlite isn't recommended. I think it will be harder for them to get a grip and absorb nutrients in an ideal way since you are going more in a hydroponic direction but without the appropriate liquid ferts.
Anyway it should still work out and I don't think it has something to do with the redness.
One kind of LED is not another LED per se, full spectrum cool white LED should be pretty similar to fluorescent but if it's not full spectrum thats a different story.
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Yonatin
Registered: 09/05/17
Posts: 654
Loc:
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Solipsis]
#25790355 - 02/04/19 11:48 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Some of the sprouts are bright green and others look like what's in the picture. Do you think I should do a different light schedule or wait it out and see how they have responded to it?
Also on the fertilizer, I have some cactus liquid fertilizer, when should I start to add that to the misting bottle? My plan was to do it in a month or two at like 1/2 or 1/4 dose.
The seedling in the picture is kind of sideways because of the perlite, but that isn't how they all look and most of them are firmly established from what I can see. I do agree though and next time I am going to use a more fine perlite. Thanks for the help guys it is much appreciated.
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Johnny Dont
500 Don'ts of Knife Safety
Registered: 04/24/14
Posts: 1,830
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Yonatin]
#25790585 - 02/04/19 01:20 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Its too much light imo
I do 14/10. My light is about 18" above. And for seeds I put two pieces of wax paper over them. I remove the wax paper as they are ready for more light
You can start fertilizing as soon as you start watering, but you won't need to water until they are taken out of the humidity chamber. I use maxsea brand, 20/20/4 at half strength
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I have left life and loves behind me, to be blown about as the sea desires, to have the freedom of the open air, and to be witness to the making of the world.
Edited by Johnny Dont (02/04/19 01:21 PM)
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Yonatin
Registered: 09/05/17
Posts: 654
Loc:
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Re: Lophophora Williamsii Grow. [Re: Johnny Dont]
#25790713 - 02/04/19 02:06 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok, I gave them more night time and switched the lights to 14/10. I also snapped this picture of some other ones in a different container. I couldn't be happier that these little guys are taking off, I am really excited to be able to watch them grow. Thanks again guys, and I will keep everyone updated with progress pictures as they grow.
There are 8 in this picture.
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