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Offlineencryptor
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is peyote hard to grow
    #2570980 - 04/17/04 02:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

is peyote hard to grow. my friend had some seeds and i think he's trying to grow them. is it hard to access these seeds or graphings. tell me more. i want to talk to the cultivators.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: encryptor]
    #2571100 - 04/17/04 03:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It takes a long time.

Grow peyote to preserve this very endangered species, not to get the mescaline from it.

If you want to grow a cactus that contains mescaline, look into san pedro.

Just what I've got to say :grin:


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: Krishna]
    #2571673 - 04/17/04 07:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I understand that it may just be your personal beliefs, but please explain why you cannot both grow peyote to preserve the species and grow peyote as a mescaline source.

It'd be easy to grow far more peyote than one could manage, once you get grafting skills down pat.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2571699 - 04/17/04 07:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It takes six to 8 years for a peyote cacti to mature

Yet a San Pedro planted in Southern California can attain a one ton weight within twenty years if no one makes cuttings of it.
mj


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2571723 - 04/17/04 07:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'm talking about grafting peyote onto t.pachanoi, t.peruvianus, or some other fast growing cactus in order to speed up growth. It wouldn't take long to grow many many peyote buttons in this way. This totally negates the issue of it being a slow growing endangered species because 1) You are not relying on any unethically harvested specimens, and 2) You are increasing the rate of growth so as to make it's use more economical and practical.

The only reason I can think of why you would choose not to use your home grown grafted peyote is for spiritual/religious reasons. I don't share any of those reasons so therefore I don't have to worry. I believe that the gift of peyote is given freely and I will accept it as such.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2573350 - 04/18/04 10:14 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

San pedro is used in grafting other cacti which would nor survive outside of their natural habitats.

Peyote can survive and grow outside of its habitat in flower pots. Thus there is no reason to graft it on top of a san pedro unless it is for visual gratification that one did it.

Here is such an image from my house years ago.



And yes you can graft peyote onto san pedro but the peyote still takes as long to mature.

It is the San Pedro which will grow at its normal rate.

mj


Edited by mjshroomer (04/18/04 10:19 AM)


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OfflineNewdude1
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2573396 - 04/18/04 10:39 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What about grafting them onto Pereskiopsis, then to san p, then on its own?


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InvisibleHarveyWalbanger
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: encryptor]
    #2573445 - 04/18/04 11:25 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

First, in the intrest of answering his question, peyote takes care of itself just fine. Easy to grow if you can just manage not to pamper it to death. Second, I agree with Krishna. Not only because I think its sacred, but with creative grafting, you'll have plenty eventually, its just stupid to eat all your buttons for a single trip. I would look into growing pedro from seed as well.

Good Luck Man


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InvisibleVoodoo
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2573644 - 04/18/04 01:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mjshroomer said:
Thus there is no reason to graft it on top of a san pedro unless it is for visual gratification that one did it.






Not exactly MJ. Grafting peyote increases the rate of growth. With plenty of water and good conditions, grafting will also force pupping. So, if you just wanted a LOT of peyote in a relatively short period of time, grafting would be the way to go. :wink:


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Offlineneuro
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: Voodoo]
    #2573658 - 04/18/04 01:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mjshroomer said:
Thus there is no reason to graft it on top of a san pedro unless it is for visual gratification that one did it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Not exactly MJ. Grafting peyote increases the rate of growth. With plenty of water and good conditions, grafting will also force pupping. So, if you just wanted a LOT of peyote in a relatively short period of time, grafting would be the way to go.





When i read that i assumed "visual gratification" included faster growth as in a visually "older"/larger looking specimen.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2578697 - 04/19/04 06:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mjshroomer said:
And yes you can graft peyote onto san pedro but the peyote still takes as long to mature.

It is the San Pedro which will grow at its normal rate.





MJ, check out this thread for some extreme examples of accelerated peyote growth due to grafting. Una gets some peyotes to grow to sizes that would nomally take many years in a matter of a few months from seed. The effect isn't as pronounced with San pedro, but it's still much faster than growing the peyote on its own roots.


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OfflineNewdude1
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: psi]
    #2579236 - 04/19/04 08:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I heard growing them that fast just produces big sacks of bloated mush, prone to diceice and rott, with diluted active content, and taste way worse.


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Offlineneuro
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: psi]
    #2579545 - 04/19/04 10:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Again, size doesn't reflect maturity.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: neuro]
    #2580096 - 04/19/04 11:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

neuro said:
Again, size doesn't reflect maturity.



I can accept that size is not the sole determinant of maturity, but it's not as if the two are unrelated. Also MJ referred specifically to rates of growth: "It is the San Pedro which will grow at its normal rate." This would seem to imply that the rate of growth of the scion is unaffected, which clearly isn't the case. I may well be misinterpeting the statement though.

How are you defining maturity? Size affects ability to flower, which many would consider to be an indicator of a plant's physical maturity. If you're talking about alkaloid content, while grafted plants haven't had time to build up alkaloids and thus have lower percentages by weight of alkaloids, they're still producing alkaloids at a greater rate than smaller, non-grafted plants of the same age. (If they're not, why not?) The three-month old grafted peyote on the other thread appeared to be tens or hundreds of times greater in volume than non-grafted plants of the same age, which would suggest to me that it has a greater capacity for alkaloid production.

Grafted plants are not initially going to have the same levels of alkaloids as a plant of the same size that was grown on its own roots for its whole life, but why wouldn't the alkaloid levels of a grafted plant eventually catch up to those of a much older plant of the same size if it was allowed to grow on its own roots?

As far as the original question goes, I'd say that peyote is easy to grow unless you kill it by over-watering, over-fertilizing, or sunburn. In my experience most problems can be solved by just not watering the plant for a while.


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Offlineneuro
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: psi]
    #2580231 - 04/19/04 11:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


I can accept that size is not the sole determinant of maturity, but it's not as if the two are unrelated. Also MJ referred specifically to rates of growth: "It is the San Pedro which will grow at its normal rate." This would seem to imply that the rate of growth of the scion is unaffected, which clearly isn't the case. I may well be misinterpeting the statement though.





I interpretted it as both growing, i didn't see it the way you proposed.


Quote:


How are you defining maturity? Size affects ability to flower, which many would consider to be an indicator of a plant's physical maturity. If you're talking about alkaloid content, while grafted plants haven't had time to build up alkaloids and thus have lower percentages by weight of alkaloids, they're still producing alkaloids at a greater rate than smaller, non-grafted plants of the same age. (If they're not, why not?) The three-month old grafted peyote on the other thread appeared to be tens or hundreds of times greater in volume than non-grafted plants of the same age, which would suggest to me that it has a greater capacity for alkaloid production.





Maturity as in age. It seems to be genreally accepted that grafted peyotes are not equal in regard to alkaloid content of a similar size ungrafted peyote. I've seen a few proposed mechanism of this action but nothing concrete. If this is true then mescaline is the product of a slower secondary metabolism going on in the cactus.

As for the rest of your statements i've though about them from time to time in the past too and haven't come up with any solid answers nor had the will to carry out the experiment. Or resources for quantifying content.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: neuro]
    #2580525 - 04/20/04 12:58 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

My point was just that although a grafted plant may have less alkaloids than a non-grafted plant of the same size, it probably has more alkaloids than a non-grafted plant of the same age, meaning that it's more mature alkaloid-wise and size-wise than it would otherwise have been without grafting.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: psi]
    #2581270 - 04/20/04 03:34 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well, eventually, after it was left to grow on its own again, wouldn't it start to build up the alkaloids, and wouldn't it gain them faster since it was at a bigger size?

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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2582616 - 04/20/04 02:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Well, eventually, after it was left to grow on its own again, wouldn't it start to build up the alkaloids, and wouldn't it gain them faster since it was at a bigger size?




Right. This is something that I have beeen thinking about since the beginning. Two or three seed grown peyotes could be grafted onto a faster growing root stock in order to speed up growth considerably. Then, after a couple of years, buttons could be cut to graft again and the now much larger peyote could be made to grow it's own roots once again. You could easily produce a large farm of peyote this way and I believe that in a short time could have many very potent specimens.


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: is peyote hard to grow [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2582877 - 04/20/04 02:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I just checked at Nansnook to see what their answer would be. It seems that they have explained the issue of potency of grafted peyote a long while ago. While initial growing grafts of lophophora williamsii might have lower than usual mescaline content due to the rapidity of growth(compared to a peyote of similar size which has grown on it's own roots), once it reaches it's maximum size and starts to produce pups instead of growing larger, the grafted peyote will increase in potency.

Besides all of that long sentence I just authored, it is noted that due to peyote genetics, a grafted peyote will still produce more alkaloids pound for pound than any other mescaline producing cactus.


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Amazon Shop for: San Pedro

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Ethnobotanical Garden

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