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Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #25705480 -

krypto2000 said:
Did you even read that Wikipedia article? The issue was not in the US, it was that Mexico did not want their citizens to emmigrate because they were a valued resource; the US public had no issue with them.


The US was more than happy to deport over a million illegals.

"the US public had no issue with them"

Bullshit, there was any PC rhetoric back in that era, the US population was 90% white and there wasn't any openness to being flooded with millions of Hispanics.

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25705498 -

ballsalsa said:
they always do.  they'll pop up again attempting to make the same silly points tomorrow or the day after.  As qman says, he isn't here for an honest debate, he's here to propagandize the lurkers.


Ball, why are you making things up?  I never said I wasn't here for "an honest debate". I stated I'm not here to change the political opinions of other members because they have already made up their minds on the issue.

"propagandize the lurkers"

No, I'm here to offer a counterbalance for the lurkers and maybe convince them on the issue, that's not spewing propaganda.

Can you be anymore intellectually dishonest on what I stated?

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: qman]
    #25705508 -

Did you read the article qman? Mexico was not deporting anyone, they wanted their emmigrants back. Mexico was asking for the US to deport them because they were a valuable resource, their work force.

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: koods] * 1
    #25705512 -

koods said:
qman said:
koods said:
Places with more immigrants (illegal and legal) have higher median incomes.


Correlation isn't causation, there's many other factors at play here, I assuming you already know that fact.


You said immigrants are cheap labor and bring down wages. But that isn’t borne out in the data.


You're creating a false narrative, where do you think immigrants go to seek employment?  Where there is already economic prosperity.

You then claim that since there's immigrants in those areas that they're a part of creating that economic prosperity. :facepalm:

Of course immigrants don't go into poor areas of the country, there's NO WORK there for them, that doesn't mean immigrants are part of creating economic activity.

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: krypto2000]
    #25705520 -

krypto2000 said:
Did you read the article qman? Mexico was not deporting anyone, they wanted their emmigrants back. Mexico was asking for the US to deport them because they were a valuable resource, their work force.


And the US government was more than happy to utilize a massive amount of resources to deport them back to Mexico.

If it was so politically popular to have millions of illegals in the US back then, why didn't the US just say to Mexico, 'too bad, we're not doing anything'?

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: qman] * 2
    #25705524 -

So working illegal  immigrants don’t create economic activity but Americans doing the same job would? I don’t see how it matters at all who is doing the job.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: krypto2000]
    #25705534 -

krypto2000 said:
Why would it have been illegal to come by land and not boat?


There really was no such thing as illegal immigration back then. People did exactly what the migrant caravan is doing today. They came en mass to the US without any authorization. The only difference now is policy. Back then we just let everyone who showed up in.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: qman] * 1
    #25705545 -

qman said:
ballsalsa said:
they always do.  they'll pop up again attempting to make the same silly points tomorrow or the day after.  As qman says, he isn't here for an honest debate, he's here to propagandize the lurkers.


Ball, why are you making things up?  I never said I wasn't here for "an honest debate". I stated I'm not here to change the political opinions of other members because they have already made up their minds on the issue.

"propagandize the lurkers"

No, I'm here to offer a counterbalance for the lurkers and maybe convince them on the issue, that's not spewing propaganda.

Can you be anymore intellectually dishonest on what I stated?



probably, but I won't

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25705560 -

I think we all can agree that letting more people into the country undocumented or not, Mexican or not, isn't good for the United States.

I'm not against illegal immigrants. Im against overpopulation. Let us not forget that's what it all boils down too in the end.

If there was 1 billion people on earth we could be living in a much better world. Maybe we wouldn't have all this technology but everyone's needs would be met and then some.


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.

It's just a shot away..

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: koods] * 1
    #25705574 -

koods said:
So working illegal  immigrants don’t create economic activity but Americans doing the same job would? I don’t see how it matters at all who is doing the job.


I think they view it as a zero sum game, thst probably goes to explain a lot of this. Someone else benifitting, whether it relates to them or not, they view as them losing. If resources became a problem thst may be true, but I don't think we're anywhere near that, much of that talk is fear mongering or using flawed models thst don't account for change, adaption, or technological advances. Limited resources is a distraction from the 1% hoarding all of the resources and their insatiable demand for more.

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: koods]
    #25705647 -

koods said:
So working illegal  immigrants don’t create economic activity but Americans doing the same job would? I don’t see how it matters at all who is doing the job.


It's the same economic activity, but the shortfall ends up on the US worker, while the benefits go to the elite and immigrants. 

Shouldn't the native citizens be the top economic priority instead of the very wealthy and non-US citizens?

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: krypto2000]
    #25705657 -

krypto2000 said:
Why would it have been illegal to come by land and not boat?


Immigration from Europe almost always came through Ellis Island.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: Brian Jones]
    #25705662 -

Yeah, but there were no immigration laws then, you make it here you're considered a lawful citizen. It doesn't matter if you came by boat or by mexican caravan.

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: krypto2000]
    #25705666 -

krypto2000 said:
koods said:
So working illegal  immigrants don’t create economic activity but Americans doing the same job would? I don’t see how it matters at all who is doing the job.


I think they view it as a zero sum game, thst probably goes to explain a lot of this. Someone else benifitting, whether it relates to them or not, they view as them losing. If resources became a problem thst may be true, but I don't think we're anywhere near that, much of that talk is fear mongering or using flawed models thst don't account for change, adaption, or technological advances. Limited resources is a distraction from the 1% hoarding all of the resources and their insatiable demand for more.


Poor workers aren't economically selfsufficient, so the difference is made up with government services which is limited in nature.  The more poor people means a smaller piece of the pie for those that rely on those services.

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #25705671 -

Bill_Oreilly said:
I think we all can agree that letting more people into the country undocumented or not, Mexican or not, isn't good for the United States. .


Wrong

https://news.gallup.com/poll/235793/record-high-americans-say-immigration-good-thing.aspx


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: koods]
    #25705698 -

koods said:
Bill_Oreilly said:
I think we all can agree that letting more people into the country undocumented or not, Mexican or not, isn't good for the United States. .


Wrong

https://news.gallup.com/poll/235793/record-high-americans-say-immigration-good-thing.aspx


Not a good poll at all.

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: qman] * 1
    #25705700 -

Can you elaborate on ehat you mean by they are not, "economically self sufficient?" If that's what I think it means (they don't make enough money to fully support themselves) then I would agree, but I'd say that's because they're not paid enough, not because they're not valuable or worth it. You could say the exact same thing of a slave for instance, they don't make enough money to feed themselves and rely on the slave master's "hand outs" to do so. To me I would say that's a problem eith the employers/slave owners, not the lowliest worker.

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: qman] * 1
    #25705716 -

qman said:
koods said:
Bill_Oreilly said:
I think we all can agree that letting more people into the country undocumented or not, Mexican or not, isn't good for the United States. .


Wrong

https://news.gallup.com/poll/235793/record-high-americans-say-immigration-good-thing.aspx


Not a good poll at all.


Yeah Gallup is a fly by night operation :rolleyes:


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: krypto2000]
    #25705718 -

krypto2000 said:
Can you elaborate on ehat you mean by they are not, "economically self sufficient?" If that's what I think it means (they don't make enough money to fully support themselves) then I would agree, but I'd say that's because they're not paid enough, not because they're not valuable or worth it. You could say the exact same thing of a slave for instance, they don't make enough money to feed themselves and rely on the slave master's "hand outs" to do so. To me I would say that's a problem eith the employers/slave owners, not the lowliest worker.


Well, I wouldn't expect the capitalists to donate higher wages unless there's a valid reason to do so, right? 

Why would I want to give the capitalists a favorable labor market when I want to have the bargaining chip when it comes to the supply vs demand equation that affects wages?

BTW, before the social safety nets were implemented, my Polish ancestors did NOT burden the existing native population. They were selfsufficient in those terms, not like in today's environment.

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Re: BUILD THE WALL [Re: qman]
    #25705724 -

So you want to bargain eith capitalists by limiting the labor pool and thus increasing your percieved worth? I think it would be better to do so by using our collective strength and putting regulstions on the capitalists.

You're right that the early immigrants did not use tax dollars/welfare. I would say that's incredibly disingenuous though considering there were no federal taxes, there were likely hardly any state taxes if any (idk what time period is in question), and land was free to claim.

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