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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25658643 -

The Ecstatic said:
Are the scare quotes necessary?

The point is the right is trying like hell to change the narrative from class struggle (poor being burdened while rich skate free) to demonization of socialists/liberals/immigrants/climate change.

If you want to interpret the protests as a refutation of Macron’s wildly unpopular neoliberal agenda, you’d be right. But don’t pretend the French are protesting to deny climate change, rebuke immigrants, or promote right wing nationalism.


I think one can acknowledge man made climate change and also reject a proposal to potentially reverse it.

I can love the environment and also point out a policy proposed by the elite to destroy the working class in the name of a "carbon tax".

I have always stated it's a luxury to be a champion of "liberal causes", but as soon as it truly bites into a person's standard of living, that survival mechanism kicks in with full force. This protest is a perfect example.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: christopera]
    #25658646 -

christopera said:
qman said:
christopera said:
No, not a single person argued that the protests were about denying/saving the world from climate change.

You attempted to discredit the need for the fuel tax by saying France isn't going to save the world.

The arguments were pretty cut and dry, except when you feel the need to misrepresent them.


No, you stated that the tax proposal was about "transition of technology", not economics.

christopera said:
I think pain was the intention of the tax. The idea is to spur a transition of technology, especially to more efficient homes and electric car technology. If you look at the links I posted above you'll see EV's are starting to sell rather well.




And I was right. Good work!


Then you and Ecstatic are in major disagreement on the issue.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: qman] * 1
    #25658660 -

qman said:
The Ecstatic said:
Are the scare quotes necessary?

The point is the right is trying like hell to change the narrative from class struggle (poor being burdened while rich skate free) to demonization of socialists/liberals/immigrants/climate change.

If you want to interpret the protests as a refutation of Macron’s wildly unpopular neoliberal agenda, you’d be right. But don’t pretend the French are protesting to deny climate change, rebuke immigrants, or promote right wing nationalism.


I think one can acknowledge man made climate change and also reject a proposal to potentially reverse it.

I can love the environment and also point out a policy proposed by the elite to destroy the working class in the name of a "carbon tax".

I have always stated it's a luxury to be a champion of "liberal causes", but as soon as it truly bites into a person's standard of living, that survival mechanism kicks in with full force. This protest is a perfect example.


I don’t think they’re trying to destroy the working class so much as they’re trying to shield the rich. That’s neoliberalism 101. We aren’t going to solve climate change under capitalism. As you correctly pointed out, carbon taxes (in their current iteration) disproportionately affect the working class. Liberals have duped people into believing we all need to stop using straws and all drive hybrids to solve climate change when in reality it’s these mega corporations that are polluting far more than any one person could. Don’t get me wrong, the carbon footprint of an OECD citizen is much higher than their global south counterpart, and the excesses of late capitalism in the west need to be curtailed (we throw away half of our food, buy new cars every few years), but the easiest way to mitigate climate change is starting with the multinationals.

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change


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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: qman] * 3
    #25658676 -

qman said:
Then you and Ecstatic are in major disagreement on the issue.


Nope.

You are attempting to misrepresent my argument. I said the fuel tax was there to aid in a transition from carbon use.

Ecstatic said the protesters are protesting the tax because it puts the burden on them.

I agree with Ecstatic.

You made some nonsense up about the protesters being anti-climate change tax, when really they are anti-climate change and anti-tax. The distinction is important.

It's simple. Try to keep up.


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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: christopera]
    #25658708 -

Are you saying the protestors are anti climate change and anti taxes? The global climate change accords were literally signed in Paris, and France has some of the highest tax rates in the world.


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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #25658720 -

Of course they are anti climate change.  Why would they want climate change? You provided lots of information about France's fight against climate change.

The protests were anti-tax, yes?


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: qman]
    #25658728 -

qman said:
The Ecstatic said:
The right is trying like hell to co opt the protests as some sort of rebuke against climate change and immigrants but, shockingly, they’re arguing in bad faith.


But isn't calling out the rationalization of "climate change" for the taxation on the peasants an important part of rejecting the proposal?


Absolutely.

I feel like people should be happy while they work on Earth's problems. Not miserable.


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TRUMP 2020

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: christopera]
    #25658745 -

christopera said:
qman said:
Then you and Ecstatic are in major disagreement on the issue.


Nope.

You are attempting to misrepresent my argument. I said the fuel tax was there to aid in a transition from carbon use.

Ecstatic said the protesters are protesting the tax because it puts the burden on them.

I agree with Ecstatic.

You made some nonsense up about the protesters being anti-climate change tax, when really they are anti-climate change and anti-tax. The distinction is important.

It's simple. Try to keep up.


Exactly, you stated "the fuel tax was there to aid in a transition from carbon use".

Ecstatic stated it was about "trying to shield the rich".

There is your disagreement, Ecstatic and myself don't think the proposal had very much to do with helping the climate.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: qman] * 2
    #25658760 -

how does my argument counter Exstatics point? I prosed nothing on the subject.

You are telling campfire stories again.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: christopera] * 1
    #25658958 -

christopera said:
Of course they are anti climate change.  Why would they want climate change? You provided lots of information about France's fight against climate change.

The protests were anti-tax, yes?


Oh ok, I misunderstood. I thought by anti climate change you meant climate change deniers.


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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25658975 -

Yeah I can see where the confusion came from.

Since we are talking about "climate change policy" and I said "anti climate change" it could be assumed "policy" was inserted on the end. I should have worded differently.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: christopera] * 2
    #25658995 -

To qman’s point, I don’t think the French working class have any issue with the implementation of taxes being used to curtail carbon emissions, they just don’t want to have to pay for the brunt of it themselves. Austerity in Europe has already decimated the working class enough because the super rich wrecked the economy. Now, the working class is expected to tighten its belt once again because of a problem explicitly caused by the super rich. Fuck that.


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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25659042 -

The Ecstatic said:
To qman’s point, I don’t think the French working class have any issue with the implementation of taxes being used to curtail carbon emissions, they just don’t want to have to pay for the brunt of it themselves. Austerity in Europe has already decimated the working class enough because the super rich wrecked the economy. Now, the working class is expected to tighten its belt once again because of a problem explicitly caused by the super rich. Fuck that.


That's been my point from the very beginning, this "carbon tax" is about economic policy, not about saving the world from climate change.

The terrible aspect of this climate change hysteria is that it's highly prone to abuse by the people in power. Unfortunately, liberals buy into these scare tactics hook, line and sinker.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: qman]
    #25659049 -

Why do you refer to it as climate change hysteria? We have a decade to make serious economic changes before the planet is uninhabitable.

Of course the rich don’t give a shit. They’d love it if we all died off. They have the resources to save themselves.


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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25659079 -

qman said:
There is your disagreement, Ecstatic and myself don't think the proposal had very much to do with helping the climate.


Do you agree with qman's interpretation of your argument?

Personally, you can create any reason for the French populace not liking the tax, whether it's too much burden, a lack of punishment for the rich, whatever. The fact is, they don't like it. I made that point and two others. 1) the tax is designed to promote a transition to technologies not as carbon dependent, 2) the shift appears to be happening even before the fuel tax was/will be instituted (see links on front page).

qman then asserted that our views differ. They don't, and none of my talking points are contrary to yours, and I don't disagree with you at all. I agree that the working class shouldn't be solely penalized. I agree that Capitalism is failing. I would also contest that these types of taxes are great examples of Capitalism trying to correct with as little damage to itself as possible, a major under correction in reality. The problem is that somebody has to pay, and eventually it's going to be the consumer/working class, no way around it, not within capitalism, and not under any guise of liberalism or neoliberalism. We need a form of neo-neoliberalism if we are going to properly handle these topics.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

Edited by christopera (12/05/18 02:31 PM)

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: christopera] * 1
    #25659086 -

The fuel tax would no doubt HELP with reducing carbon emissions, but I think qman is right in stating that any serious attempt to mitigate the effects of climate change require a kind of substantial transformation that the ruling class certainly does not want. The fuel tax was a way to appease climate activists AND prevent any sort of policy that threatens the status quo.


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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25659102 -

I agree that the fuel tax would help, it has already been shown to help in other scenarios. Again, I linked to articles on the front page. I do think it sucks and I do think it could be done in more optimized ways, but it would work.

Until my previous post I never addressed any of the points about ruling class, etc.. yet qman kept trying to make me out as being contrary to your points, which I never was.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

Edited by christopera (12/05/18 02:51 PM)

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25659113 -

The Ecstatic said:
Why do you refer to it as climate change hysteria? We have a decade to make serious economic changes before the planet is uninhabitable.



Really, are we going to have to move to the moon or Mars?  :sad:

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: qman]
    #25659581 -

qman said:
Really, are we going to have to move to the moon or Mars?  :sad:


Nah. We will all be dead. People that aren’t us will do something like that.


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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: christopera]
    #25659615 -

I wouldn't rule it out.

Maybe when earth dies we will simply mine it from afar.


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TRUMP 2020

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