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afoaf
CEO DBK?


Registered: 11/08/02
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Loc: Ripple's Heart
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I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded
#5451150 - 03/28/06 12:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/03/28/france.protests/index.html
Some one send france to an economics class.
At least the whiney entitlement crowd.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


Registered: 06/29/04
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: afoaf]
#5451187 - 03/28/06 12:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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"The CPE would allow employers to hire and fire workers who are 26 years old and younger any time within their first two years of employment for any reason."
that sounds pretty fucking retarded to me. usually thats a clause in an application, stating that under the first 90 days or whatever.. but written into law saying that if you are under 26, you can be fired at anytime, for any reason.. i can see why students would oppose that.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: afoaf]
#5451191 - 03/28/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I donno about retarded... some pretty bright scientists have come out of France... but the French culture sure seem to have a lot of issues/oddities/analness compared to your typical European country.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: kotik]
#5451282 - 03/28/06 01:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
that sounds pretty fucking retarded to me. usually thats a clause in an application, stating that under the first 90 days or whatever.. but written into law saying that if you are under 26, you can be fired at anytime, for any reason.. i can see why students would oppose that.
But the right to contract should be unlimited. I don't know the specifics of French labor law, but if the law says nothing more than 'employers have the right to fire an employee under the age of 26 during the first two years of employment', and this overrides any mutually agreed upon contractual clause to the contrary, then I have a big problem with it, though not for the same reason the morons protesting do. Again, there should be an unlimited right to contract -- if an employer and an employee agree on a contract whereby the employee can be fired for any reason for the first 50 years of employment, that should be perfectly fine. Willful ignorance of economics is not a French phenomenon, it's a human phenomenon.
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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DoctorJ


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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Ancalagon]
#5451296 - 03/28/06 01:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think the student protests are more due to the fact that it is apparently very hard for french companies to fire people over 26, legally speaking. Companies have to pay fines and all this crap. Which is super-retarded, IMO. So if they are going to make it to where french companies can hire and fire according to marketplace conditions (which they should, IMO), then they should make that apply to EVERYONE and not selectively enforce it against a certain age bracket.
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: DoctorJ]
#5451335 - 03/28/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: I think the student protests are more due to the fact that it is apparently very hard for french companies to fire people over 26, legally speaking. Companies have to pay fines and all this crap. Which is super-retarded, IMO. So if they are going to make it to where french companies can hire and fire according to marketplace conditions (which they should, IMO), then they should make that apply to EVERYONE and not selectively enforce it against a certain age bracket.
Couldn't agree with you more.
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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afoaf
CEO DBK?


Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: afoaf]
#5451528 - 03/28/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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here's an idea everyone...stick it to the man and quit your job if your employer enforces that.
the market determines it's own working conditions.
at the very least, I think we can agree that's a better approach than burning your neighbor's car.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: afoaf]
#5451732 - 03/28/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
afoaf said: here's an idea everyone...stick it to the man and quit your job if your employer enforces that.
the market determines it's own working conditions.
at the very least, I think we can agree that's a better approach than burning your neighbor's car.
Oui Oui.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: DoctorJ]
#5453836 - 03/29/06 12:48 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think the student protests are more due to the fact that it is apparently very hard for french companies to fire people over 26, legally speaking
Anger is a lot more widespread than just students tho. One third of school teachers walked out, electricity workers, no national newspapers were published. The last figure I saw was 66% of the French population oppose this. They see it as a law rushed through parliament without any debate shifting power to employers.
Personally I think being able to fire someone for no reason for 2 years is a fucking disgrace. You're just going to get the bastards using it as an excuse to keep workers scared, keep wages low and keep working conditions miserable. Which is really what this is all about.
The French also understand that this is just the thin end of the wedge. You let employers get away with this and they'll be wanting more and more. Thank god someone finally has the guts to take a courageous stand against the bastards.
Vive le France!
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niteowl
GrandPaw


Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: kotik]
#5453919 - 03/29/06 03:27 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
kotik said: "The CPE would allow employers to hire and fire workers who are 26 years old and younger any time within their first two years of employment for any reason."
that sounds pretty fucking retarded to me. usually thats a clause in an application, stating that under the first 90 days or whatever.. but written into law saying that if you are under 26, you can be fired at anytime, for any reason.. i can see why students would oppose that.
There are states in America that have a "Free Will Law", that allows employers to fire anyone (regardless of age or length with the company) at will.
Arkansas is one of those states.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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exclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Alex213]
#5453982 - 03/29/06 04:31 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: Anger is a lot more widespread than just students though. One third of school teachers walked out, electricity workers, no national newspapers were published. The last figure I saw was 66% of the French population oppose this. They see it as a law rushed through parliament without any debate shifting power to employers.
Personally I think being able to fire someone for no reason for 2 years is a fucking disgrace. You're just going to get the bastards using it as an excuse to keep workers scared, keep wages low and keep working conditions miserable. Which is really what this is all about.
The French also understand that this is just the thin end of the wedge. You let employers get away with this and they'll be wanting more and more. Thank god someone finally has the guts to take a courageous stand against the bastards.
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.
But I say that the anti-CPE movement hides something deeper than just a disagreement with a new law. I mean, its been over 20 years that the government promises to lower the unemployment rate for the people under 26 by making new laws and new contracts, and its been 20 years that it has been raising higher and higher (today i think its something like 23% unemployed).
This movement hides a general dissatisfaction with the system, people have a hard time trusting the government and feel that its power is illegitimate. Just look at how the DeVillepin has become France's prime minister without EVER having been elected!!
Not to mention, the CPE is unconstitutional because it is a cause of discrimination, it only applies to people under 26 years of age.
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exclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: afoaf]
#5453986 - 03/29/06 04:38 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
afoaf said: the market determines it's own working conditions.
Does economics serve the people, or do people serve economics?
Quote:
at the very least, I think we can agree that's a better approach than burning your neighbor's car.
oh come on now, look beyond what CNN feeds you, the rioters are an extremely small minority of the people who are manifesting.
Quote:
I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded
sigh. can't you start a debate without sounding so rudely arrogant?
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Rogues_Pierre
Stranger


Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 99
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: exclusive58]
#5454086 - 03/29/06 07:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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How's the food in the French prisons?
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: afoaf]
#5454480 - 03/29/06 09:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The MSM wanted a Civil War sooooo badly in Iraq, but it looks like they will be getting one in France instead.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Alex213]
#5454660 - 03/29/06 10:45 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If people would just stop working for and buying from companies we wouldn't have these problems.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: afoaf]
#5454773 - 03/29/06 11:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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An employment contract should be a mutual, consentual agreement between the employer and employee. The employee should be able to quit whenever he or she wants and the employer should be able to terminate the employment whenever he or she wants.
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beatnicknick
The Innovator


Registered: 05/25/05
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Redstorm]
#5455387 - 03/29/06 02:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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They're protesting because it's oppressing a class, that being youth. They're protesting over the ANY REASON part, which can include NO REASON, or something like the worker isn't good looking enough, added with the ANY TIME part means they can just cut them like that and whatever that student needs money for is no longer funded. Now maybe it would be fine if it was for everyone, which would make it pretty much legit, but this is like oppression.
-------------------- I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.
Edited by beatnicknick (03/29/06 02:20 PM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Redstorm]
#5455420 - 03/29/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: An employment contract should be a mutual, consentual agreement between the employer and employee. The employee should be able to quit whenever he or she wants and the employer should be able to terminate the employment whenever he or she wants.
I agree 100%. Unless of course there is a written contract. No contract = No gurantee of employment.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: exclusive58]
#5455600 - 03/29/06 03:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
exclusive58 said:
Quote:
afoaf said: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded
sigh. can't you start a debate without sounding so rudely arrogant?
Yeah really. He is acting like he's French.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#5457880 - 03/30/06 12:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If people would just stop working for and buying from companies we wouldn't have these problems.
Or if employers were willing to behave with a little fairness.
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Alex213]
#5458165 - 03/30/06 03:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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i almost went to jail in Paris.. twice..
luckily, all i have are good memories!
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?


Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Alex213]
#5460840 - 03/30/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think it's fair to assume that it is not cost effective for employers to continually oust people.
training and hiring costs are expensive.
so are bleeting heart liberal employment laws like minimum wage and limiting employer's ability to hire/fire/repurpose workers according to market needs.
the invisible hand finds balance while the whiney one winds up tipping the scales against itself.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: afoaf]
#5461168 - 03/30/06 06:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
so are bleeting heart liberal employment laws like minimum wage and limiting employer's ability to hire/fire/repurpose
Are you pining for the days of serfdom?
Coming from the underbelly of the lower class, it is common practice for employers in America to fire tenured, above average salaried workers, chop off their benefits and throw them to the dogs of relentless free-for-fall capitalism. This is what the French wish to avoid, I imagine. I find the French protests admirable. It is far more than I can say about my apathetic, obese fellow countrymen as their individial civil liberties and worker rights are being slowly sliced away.
The French system as it stood before the CPE favored the workers, now it favors the employers. Choose a side.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Alex213]
#5461178 - 03/30/06 06:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Willing... maybe, but not by government coersion.
Able is another matter. Sometimes businesses just suck, and don't make any money.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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afoaf
CEO DBK?


Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: bukkake]
#5461274 - 03/30/06 07:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Your scenario couldn't be more irrelevant to the topic at hand.
The law has no bearing on tenured, well-salaried workers, considering the fact that people generally achieve that status WELL PAST 2 years in most cases and are usually older than 26.
Unless it's an inept teacher in LA Unified, you'd be hard pressed to find me someone younger than 26 with an overpaid and/or tenured position
If the law, instead, was worded to give employers the right to fire people with a considerable amount of time in the job, regardless of merit then I would be a little more sympathetic.
But once again, people miss the point and go right for the kleenex and tears.
read the posted article:
Under current law, merit in the workplace has little sway. Workers cannot be easily or inexpensively fired.
As a result, employers are reluctant to hire, resulting in an overall French unemployment rate of 9.6 percent. The CPE would allow employers to hire and fire workers who are 26 years old and younger any time within their first two years of employment for any reason.
If I was going to protest, I'd protest the fact that a bunch of entitled retards are allowed to keep cashing a paycheck because the government has limited my ability as a businessman to manage and reward my workforce based on merit.
This affects employees because less money is available to reward productive members of the workforce because it is being used to subsidize the unproductive ones.
As others have mentioned, I am also in an at-will state. I could be fired tommorrow, but I won't be because I bust my ass and it does not behoove my company to lose the investment they have made in me.
While your example of so-called serfdom is not germane to this topic, I will address it by saying that in the long run, companies can not maintain the hiring/firing practices that you mention. This is because of public outrage (a la Walmart) as well as a growing inability to fill new positions. At the end of the day, businesses don't make profits with RIFs, but they are a necessary tool that a business should be free to wield as they see fit, regardless of what a bunch of lazy socialists think.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: afoaf]
#5464615 - 03/31/06 04:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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How about screaming because the government has allowed some no account ne'er do well to keep the job I'd be willing to work hard at but can't get because it's already taken. Forever.
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: zappaisgod]
#5465347 - 03/31/06 08:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: How about screaming because the government has allowed some no account ne'er do well to keep the job I'd be willing to work hard at but can't get because it's already taken. Forever.
It is so simple, yet so many appear not to understand.
This seems to me like the social security debate in the US. Both sides admit that the problem is there but one side prevents reform out of principle regardless of whether it is the logical thing to do. This has to be what is going on because the law seems to be common sense considering unemployment among French youth is the highest in western europe.
Can anyone explain why unemployed people are protesting a law that allows companies to replace employed people?
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afoaf
CEO DBK?


Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Catalysis]
#5465556 - 03/31/06 09:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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because they are french and would rather throw trashcans through the local cheese shop's window and burn their neighbor's le car instead of pulling their heads far enough out of their ass to figure it out?
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: afoaf]
#5465619 - 03/31/06 09:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
afoaf said: Your scenario couldn't be more irrelevant to the topic at hand.
What will stop employers from hiring under 26'ers and not bothering to hire over 26's and repeating the process? Not much. It is another step towards worker exploitation and people outside of France are mystified as to why?
Again, this is an issue of employer against employee.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: bukkake]
#5465657 - 03/31/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
bukkake said: What will stop employers from hiring under 26'ers and not bothering to hire over 26's and repeating the process? Not much.
What would stop employers from avoiding france altogether and doing business in a free country? Not much.
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: DieCommie]
#5465904 - 03/31/06 11:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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A free country by what definition? Where the exploiting and plundering by wealthy capitalist, corporate companies is okay in third world shitholes where there are no worker rights?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: bukkake]
#5466652 - 04/01/06 07:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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You do realize that the U.S. federal government has no say as to what happens in another sovereign country's borders? They also have no say on where a company can go set up shop. If some U.S. company wants to go open a factory in Middle-of-nowhere-istan and exploit the workers....the U.S. federal government has no authority to stop such a thing.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5466986 - 04/01/06 10:14 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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You do realize that the U.S. federal government has no say as to what happens in another sovereign country's borders?
Hmm...are you sure about that one Randall? You honestly can't think of a case where the US has influenced what happened inside another country's borders?
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Alex213]
#5466993 - 04/01/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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So its bad if the US govt. influences another country, unless it has to do with labor practices, then its good.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: DieCommie]
#5467000 - 04/01/06 10:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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No, it's good if it's good.
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Bikerfool
Your Local Edgelord


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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: afoaf]
#5467012 - 04/01/06 10:29 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I wish Americans had that kind of passion...
-------------------- Just an angsty teen contributing to the pubs decline with contentless posts.
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5467044 - 04/01/06 10:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: You do realize that the U.S. federal government has no say as to what happens in another sovereign country's borders? They also have no say on where a company can go set up shop. If some U.S. company wants to go open a factory in Middle-of-nowhere-istan and exploit the workers....the U.S. federal government has no authority to stop such a thing.
You do realize there are several free trade agreements, and the business sector in America is as tied into American governance as the political sector. If the latter even exists anymore.
Quote:
I wish Americans had that kind of passion...
Exactly. Instead, they're left as Homer Simpsons watching fucking Survivor and American Idol over becoming politically active regarding the things directly affecting them.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Alex213]
#5467119 - 04/01/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: You do realize that the U.S. federal government has no say as to what happens in another sovereign country's borders?
Hmm...are you sure about that one Randall? You honestly can't think of a case where the US has influenced what happened inside another country's borders?
I just knew you were going to call me on that. 
Of course the U.S. federal government has used its influence to help accomplish certain things in some countries. For example, the U.S. federal government uses money and military aid to help the Colombian government fight the cocaine gangs and it also gives weapons to the Israeli's which often end up being used against Palestinian Islamic militants.
But, when a U.S. company decides to set up shop in some country and this particular country allows it....what does the U.S. government have to do with that at all? To me, the whole matter is between the company and the government of the country in question.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Bikerfool]
#5467123 - 04/01/06 11:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bikerfool said: I wish Americans had that kind of passion...
Turn on some football and hand us a beer and you'll see passion.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: bukkake]
#5467130 - 04/01/06 11:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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bukkake said: You do realize there are several free trade agreements, and the business sector in America is as tied into American governance as the political sector. If the latter even exists anymore.
Free trade agreements have nothing to do with this. This whole argument is about companies deciding to go set up shop in a non-U.S. area. The U.S. federal government has no authority over such a situation.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Catalysis]
#5467148 - 04/01/06 11:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Catalysis said:
Can anyone explain why unemployed people are protesting a law that allows companies to replace employed people?
Because it's not unemployed people protesting. It's mostly a bunch of jerk-off students who are afraid of competing in the real world. FLF: Future Losers of France. A bunch of chicken shit negativists. Grow some balls. Make yourself useful to your employer and he will make himself useful to you. Why are they so afraid of a meritocracy? Is it because they suspect that they lack merit?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: zappaisgod]
#5467161 - 04/01/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Grow some balls.
[joke]
French people do not have that ability.
[/end joke]
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: zappaisgod]
#5467164 - 04/01/06 11:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Are you still pissed because France didn't buy the whole WMD bullshit Bush was selling?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Alex213]
#5467168 - 04/01/06 11:28 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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While I am perturbed at the overly Leftist bent of French politics and media, I do not understand why American Righties loathe that country and its people so much.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Alex213]
#5467287 - 04/01/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex213 said: Are you still pissed because France didn't buy the whole WMD bullshit Bush was selling?
They didn't? I didn't know that. I thought that they thought the same thing but didn't agree to the invasion because they were being bought off, like Russia, by Saddam. Just what does this have to do with my disgust at people who think they are owed something they have done nothing to earn?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5467337 - 04/01/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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RandalFlagg said: While I am perturbed at the overly Leftist bent of French politics and media, I do not understand why American Righties loathe that country and its people so much.
Because of their undeserved presence on the UN Security Council, because of their disgraceful willingness to be bought off by any asshole with cash, because of their incredible arrogance in the face of their increasing irrelevance, because of their astonishing hypocrisy, because they are a bunch of laydown twats without the wherewithal or courage to defend themselves yet have the nerve to pass judgment on their protectors. But this has nothing to do with the current issue. Well maybe the courage thing does. Embrace competition. Win, or at least try. You'll be better off. French character. Now there's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. They can do whatever they want to fuck themselves. You can bet your ass I'll be standing there applauding their efforts. "Way to go retards. Now get the fuck out of the way you incredible morons. Oh, and thanks for the cheese. It was redolent of twat yet had a lingering bite of week-old sneaker and anus."
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afoaf
CEO DBK?


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Posts: 32,665
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: DieCommie]
#5467413 - 04/01/06 12:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
bukkake said: What will stop employers from hiring under 26'ers and not bothering to hire over 26's and repeating the process? Not much.
What would stop employers from avoiding france altogether and doing business in a free country? Not much.
C'mon, bukkake, think it through...
Because, that's an untenable and bankrupting proposition, nevermind knee-jerk and thoughtless.
The whole premise of this new law isn't to drive France into a squalid standard of living. The point is to move the country closer to merit based employment arrangements, and away from socialist satisficing.
Let's throw out all the labor laws in france that would prevent your scenario, and the fact that the government is trying to improve their economy not destory it, and let's assume that they fired everyone at 25.9 years old and only employed people younger than that age...
Most people haven't advanced very far, in terms of (technical) proficiency, in their careers at 26. In technological and scientific positions, you'd discover very quickly that unless your population completed their doctorates at age 8, and worked 18 years in a field before the 25.9yo fire date, your country is going to be shit out of luck outside the scope of the basic, low-skill industries this type of business practice would relegate the country to.
To suggest that this is a slippery slope that ultimately leads to France actively preventing the majority of its workforce from participating in the job market is actually pretty comical.
Is that what you were going for?
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: afoaf]
#5469537 - 04/01/06 11:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Employment laws are a constant struggle between employee and employer. Throughout history employers have been notorious for exploiting their employee workforce.
What I am going for is supporting those on the ground of France and more knowledgable than you and I and with a better understanding of the proposed laws at hand.
Is it or is it not possible for employers to exploit this law to their own benefit? The law is designed to protect employers, not employees. That is why they despise is.
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: bukkake]
#5470003 - 04/02/06 04:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Is it or is it not possible for employers to exploit this law to their own benefit? The law is designed to protect employers, not employees. That is why they despise is.
Amen.
The French know this is just the thin end of the wedge. Let this through and next year employers will suggest "We should be allowed to fire anyone of any age without reason. And you can trust us, we won't fire anyone who breathes the word "union" or "increased pay" or "safe working conditions". Just trust us".
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kotik
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Alex213] 1
#5470013 - 04/02/06 04:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
because of their disgraceful willingness to be bought off by any asshole with cash
how is this country any different? and even more specifically.. the republican party of this country, which are the ones most opposed to the french..
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?


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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: bukkake]
#5479549 - 04/04/06 03:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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a law that benefits an employer does not preclude the possibility that it could ultimately also benefit the employee.
I don't think there's any great secret here that the people on the streets of france know that we don't about the situation.
the facts are plain and well documented, outrageous and chronic unemployment, socialized employment schemes and stagnating business.
this is a case-study for econ 201.
merit based employment contracts benefit employers and employees because it ensures direct compensation relative to your effort and a productive and motivated workforce.
knowing you will directly benefit from your actions foments more fruitful work environments than one with strict pay schedules and little negative impact for failure. think DMV.
curiously, do you agree with the notion of government enforcing the perpetual employment of people who do not adequately perform their jobs? if so, to what end?
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afoaf
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: afoaf]
#5499123 - 04/10/06 08:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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oh well, I guess no one wanted to debate this anymore.
France is rescinding the proposed law.
all those protesters should be thankful that they will now continue on their plight of high unemployment and stagnating business.
Hell No! We Won't Work!
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: afoaf]
#5502863 - 04/11/06 09:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The French Employment Fiasco by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.
Americans can only be mystified by the protests that rocked France and led to a cave in by the government. A small economic reform that would have meant the start of much-need liberalization has been repealed.
The change in labor law would have permitted employers to fire workers, age 25 years or younger, in the first two years of employment. On the surface, it seems that workers in this category ? backed by nearly the whole of French public opinion ? regard this common-sense change as treason to all that is good and just. In fact, they are demanding what no dynamic and productive economy can or should ever promise: lifetime job security.
Under the present system, there is no fraternity or equality much less liberty. Workers are free to withdraw from their jobs. To leave employment is rightly considered a human right; to deny it is tantamount to slavery or feudal serfdom. At the same time, then, it is pure hypocrisy to expect that the employer not be able to sever contracts with employees. To deny that ? as the French protestors demand ? is tantamount to enslaving employers and turning them into indentured servants of workers and their unions.
Many Americans and most reporters look at this situation and dismiss everything the workers are demanding as socialist rubbish. There is truth in that. And yet there are other reasons for their reaction beyond ideological corruption. The unemployment rate in France exceeds 10 percent, and it is on the rise. Among the group hit by the proposed reform, the rate is 22 percent. Every young person knows that it is incredibly difficult to find employment. Once they get it, they want to hold onto it for dear life.
Permanent employment is completely incompatible with productivity in a dynamic market setting. French business has responded in two ways: refusing to hire new people or hiring them only on a short-term basis. The problem with the second solution is another regulation that forbids the temporary employment contract to be used as a means of hiring those who are really permanent employees. So unless the business is prepared to take on the huge costs of permanent employment, the employer must let these "temporary" workers go, no matter how much investment the firm has in them.
These kinds of practices ? brought about by regulation ? have acculturated French workers into misunderstanding the nature of the labor contract. In a free market it is a mutually beneficial exchange like any other that takes place between a buyer and a seller. Both come to the bargaining table with equal power and they only make the exchange if both sides expect to benefit.
This system does not exist in France because a vast and incomprehensible code of regulations interferes. As a result, there is no evidence of a dynamic market for labor anywhere in sight. Rather than create new opportunities by deregulating the business environment, the government has chosen to make jobs even less secure and more vulnerable. It doesn't matter that the effect of the change might be to intensify demand for workers; with millions currently looking for work and finding none, it is easy to see why the young are in a panic.
Imagine if jobs were available for everyone who wanted to work. What if "help wanted" signs were everywhere? What if skilled laborers could pick where they wanted to work, and unskilled laborers could gain skills in a large range of environments? Or imagine if French workers were in the position of deciding ? as many young Americans are ? whether to work for someone else's company or take the risk of starting their own.
If that were the case, I would venture a guess that there would be no energy behind any protests of a law that grants business more liberality in firing. And yet a huge range of laws prevent that from happening. It is not easy to start a business in France or hire people. The taxes, mandates, and wage controls are wickedly restrictive. In the name of human rights, France has managed to deny people their most basic right of contributing to society in a manner of their own choosing.
But how can we know that a free market would guarantee high employment opportunities? In any society, in any time in human history, there is always and everywhere work to be done because there are people with unmet needs. That is because we live in a world of scarcity. Think of this in terms of your own domestic environment. Is there work to be done on your plumbing, paint, carpets, yard, and cabinetry? Is there not work you would gladly have done if the price were right? Of course there is. And this is true in every sector of society.
When we speak of unemployment, we cannot be talking about a shortage of jobs to be done. There is always work to do at some price. For that reason, there can be no such thing as involuntary unemployment in a free market. Everyone who wants to work is working and everyone who does not want to work is in that position by choice. This is a truth that follows from the universal reality of scarcity.
There are only two reasons for unemployment: legal restrictions that forbid contracts from forming (France has plenty, and the United States does too) and price restrictions that prevent the market for labor from clearing properly (France has that too, as does the US). In other words, involuntary unemployment is always and everywhere brought about by the same cause: government restriction of the market.
So we don't have to puzzle about why there is unemployment in France. We know why. The proposal to loosen labor regulations addresses only a tiny part of the reason. And that is precisely the problem with the reform: it doesn't go nearly far enough. France needs reform that simultaneously frees business in its hiring and firing decisions, frees wages to adjust based on supply and demand, frees the business sector from regulations that inhibit entrepreneurship, and reduces the costs of hiring by eliminating mandates and taxes.
So the answer to the protests is not to back away from reform but to go much, much further. A reform that hits monopoly business privileges and created new opportunities for workers would be seen as more equitable. It would give French workers hope for the future so they could see beyond the immediate need for security above all else.
Thus does France find itself in a bind, not just now but long-term. It can either go further toward socialism and thereby kill off what is left of French civilization, or it can push harder for sweeping and truly radical reform, one that creates a liberalized environment not just in one area but in all areas.
In short, France is in the bind that Eastern Europe and Russia found themselves in in the late 1980s. If young workers were thinking like true progressives, they would topple the statues of Rousseau and Robespierre and put up some to Turgot and Bastiat.
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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afoaf
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Re: I'm pretty sure that France is fucking retarded [Re: Ancalagon]
#5503216 - 04/11/06 11:54 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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great article.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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