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France's carbon tax.
    #25650322 -

Will the situation deescalate, escalate, or stay about the same?

At $7 dollars a gallon I think it escalates. Looks like they have every motivation to continue this trend and increase the tax over the next 10 years.

I think this is putting too much faith and pressure on the development of renewable energy. This is more than an unpopular decision... this is potentially disastrous. Suppose  we don't make any real headway with renewable energy in the next 10 years, which is very likely. Deterring citizens from using cars that "pollute" is likely the main objective here. Even to the extreme of offering a 5,000 euro subsidy bonus for trading in their car for a hybrid model, but the people who will be most affected by this can't afford to make that trade in. In all likelihood they will have to spend all that money to cover the cost of their new car they were basically forced to trade in and still owe money on it.

It isn't just cars. It is also directed towards homes without "clean" fuel heat and electricity, which everyone uses. Again offering a subsidy for those who switch to "clean" fuel systems.


This sort of policy is the result of a lack of creativity and dogmatic view of global warming. A pay wall tactic is not a good idea. You want to inspire the average person to give a shit about the planet or anything that's important to you? Don't be the first thing they think about when they to try to figure out what's wrong with the world. Reports have calculated over 250,000 French citizens have actively participated in these protests, while Macron has condemned the protesters and referred to them as right wing extremists.

Whatever your views on global warming are everyone should be interested to see how the economic solution works out.


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"I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.” - Gandalf The Grey.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

"I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagle's wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm HAMMERED DRUNK!" - Cal Naughton Jr. AKA The Magic Man. Abracadabra homes!

"Each tear is a drop of poison released." - Anonymous

"Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say if they knew you believe in God above? They should realize before they criticize that God is the only way to Love."

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: LRG]
    #25650708 -

LRG said:
I think this is putting too much faith and pressure on the development of renewable energy. This is more than an unpopular decision... this is potentially disastrous. Suppose  we don't make any real headway with renewable energy in the next 10 years, which is very likely.


First of all, I don't know why you think we won't make any more headway with renewable energy.  This sounds like conservative make believe to me.

More importantly, France doesn't have to make any headway with reneweable energy - the technology is already there.  They just need the motivation to use it.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25651539 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
LRG said:
I think this is putting too much faith and pressure on the development of renewable energy. This is more than an unpopular decision... this is potentially disastrous. Suppose  we don't make any real headway with renewable energy in the next 10 years, which is very likely.


First of all, I don't know why you think we won't make any more headway with renewable energy.  This sounds like conservative make believe to me.

More importantly, France doesn't have to make any headway with reneweable energy - the technology is already there.  They just need the motivation to use it.



The technology is inefficient and/or expensive. It's not make believe that electric cars still pollute CO2 because most plants that give them electricity aren't running on clean energy. It's not make believe that solar, wind, and hyrdoelectric do not produce enough electricity to power an entire country like France. Do you see anything significant on the horizon for them? Maybe in 100 or 200 years something will come up. France doesn't have to make any headway with renewable energy, you're right, but we do need to find a better solution than the half assed one being supplied.

The real issue isn't the cars. It's the power plants that give them juice. The average electric car still produces half the amount of CO2 as gas powered. Call me pessimistic, but half ain't good enough in my view. The most punishing part of this approach doesn't actually address the bulk of the problem, the world still gets roughly 80% of it's energy from fossil fuels. That doesn't include the 1 billion+ people who don't have electricity at all.

I'd be willing to accept that these are baby steps towards actually solving the problem, but as the only path presented I do not believe this alone will lead to anywhere good. My crystal ball says Mother Nature will continue consistently spewing out Katrina like disasters regardless of these measures over the next 100-200 years. In my view, the real climate deniers are the ones who believe this stuff will actually work. It's like purposely breaking the leg of a horse who got shot. Technological and scientific advancement is the answer not economic oppression.


--------------------
"I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.” - Gandalf The Grey.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

"I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagle's wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm HAMMERED DRUNK!" - Cal Naughton Jr. AKA The Magic Man. Abracadabra homes!

"Each tear is a drop of poison released." - Anonymous

"Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say if they knew you believe in God above? They should realize before they criticize that God is the only way to Love."

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: LRG]
    #25651584 -

LRG said:
It's not make believe that electric cars still pollute CO2 because most plants that give them electricity aren't running on clean energy.


That wasn't your argument.  Your argument was that it was "very likely" that "we don't make any real headway with renewable energy in the next 10 years"

The EU now gets more than 30% of its electricity from renewable sources.  And cars themselves are a significant contributor to greenhouse gases.

LRG said:
It's not make believe that solar, wind, and hyrdoelectric do not produce enough electricity to power an entire country like France.


Again, that wasn't your arguement.

LRG said:
The average electric car still produces half the amount of CO2 as gas powered. Call me pessimistic, but half ain't good enough in my view.


Cutting emissions in half is HUGE.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25653600 -

Taxes are inherently immoral because there is a threat of violence behind them. If you don't pay up you're restrained at gun point, put in chains, and thrown in a cage. That's the most unamerican thing I've ever heard. How is that different than Mob Extortion? I'm talking Federal only. 

Taxes should be almost nothing. No income tax, no sales tax, and no payroll tax. Import and Export Taxes are acceptable. Of course the Federal government would have to almost disappear which would be great. All the Taxes would be State determined for roads, schools, etc

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: Magicman69]
    #25653905 -

Magicman69 said:
Taxes are inherently immoral because there is a threat of violence behind them. If you don't pay up you're restrained at gun point, put in chains, and thrown in a cage. That's the most unamerican thing I've ever heard. How is that different than Mob Extortion? I'm talking Federal only. 

Taxes should be almost nothing. No income tax, no sales tax, and no payroll tax. Import and Export Taxes are acceptable. Of course the Federal government would have to almost disappear which would be great. All the Taxes would be State determined for roads, schools, etc


Like the individual mandate. "Pay for other people's healthcare or go to jail."


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TRUMP 2020

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: Magicman69] * 2
    #25654070 -

Magicman69 said:
Taxes are inherently immoral because there is a threat of violence behind them. If you don't pay up you're restrained at gun point, put in chains, and thrown in a cage. That's the most unamerican thing I've ever heard. How is that different than Mob Extortion? I'm talking Federal only. 

Taxes should be almost nothing. No income tax, no sales tax, and no payroll tax. Import and Export Taxes are acceptable. Of course the Federal government would have to almost disappear which would be great. All the Taxes would be State determined for roads, schools, etc


So we should just be a nomadic group of tribes again?


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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: XUL]
    #25654073 -

XUL said:
Like the individual mandate. "Pay for other people's healthcare or go to jail."


That's a gross over simplification of the problem, but if you don't mind boiling things down to where they are without any value then sure.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: christopera] * 1
    #25654098 -

I saw this today.

The carbon tax seems to be working.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/03/nissan-leaf-renault-zoe-20-of-european-ev-sales/

https://electrek.co/2018/11/14/volkswagen-electric-factories-sk-innovation-battery-cells/

For anybody who didn't follow Diesegate, basically VW's skirting of emissions regulations (several other manufacturers have been busted but less seriously since) has created a regulatory scenario where VW will effectively have to go fully electric or face more penalties. As the worlds largest manufacturer, it's expected that VW will make a massive push and all indications seem to be that they are doing so.

With all of that said, carbon taxes seem to be pushing automakers to cleaner models at least in Europe. The U.S. of course is falling further and further behind.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

Edited by christopera (12/03/18 11:52 AM)

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: Magicman69]
    #25654287 -

Magicman69 said:
Taxes are inherently immoral because there is a threat of violence behind them. If you don't pay up you're restrained at gun point, put in chains, and thrown in a cage. That's the most unamerican thing I've ever heard. How is that different than Mob Extortion? I'm talking Federal only. 

Taxes should be almost nothing. No income tax, no sales tax, and no payroll tax. Import and Export Taxes are acceptable. Of course the Federal government would have to almost disappear which would be great. All the Taxes would be State determined for roads, schools, etc


As you noted, taxes are absolutely required to pay for "roads, schools, etc" and I think we can agree "in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes" (Ben Franklin).

Yet taxes from the Federal Government = "Mob Extortion" while taxes from the State Government = "Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy"?  What difference does it make?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25654292 -

There are 50 different states with 50 different options.

There is only one government.


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TRUMP 2020

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: XUL] * 1
    #25654304 -

There are 51 governments, 50 state, and 1 federal. What does any of that matter? Dollars are dollars, eh?

Let's try not to let this devolve into some nonsense about states rights either, because that's b.s. slave owner talk.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: christopera]
    #25654318 -

Yes, state rights.

I admire a small federal government that protects the 50 states. I like seeing states with variety. Some with marijuana dispensaries and some with no required inspection for vehicles.


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TRUMP 2020

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: XUL]
    #25654325 -

Shit is getting bad in France.

They are burning cars and straight up rioting.

Will it end?


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TRUMP 2020

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: XUL]
    #25654348 -

XUL said:
Shit is getting bad in France.

They are burning cars and straight up rioting.

Will it end?


The debt makes it impossible for this to end anytime soon. This is just the start, it was inevitable.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: qman]
    #25654366 -

qman said:
XUL said:
Shit is getting bad in France.

They are burning cars and straight up rioting.

Will it end?


The debt makes it impossible for this to end anytime soon. This is just the start, it was inevitable.


How do you mean debt?

I am not too familiar with Frances politics.


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TRUMP 2020

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: XUL] * 2
    #25654378 -

Debt has nothing to do with the riots nor this thread. He's just blowing hot air so he go down his traditional rant about the elite.

The riots are over the price of fuel due to a new fuel tax, one intended to promote less harmful methods.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: christopera]
    #25654411 -

Maybe they should have weened into this tax over a period of time.


--------------------
TRUMP 2020

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: XUL] * 1
    #25654446 -

I think pain was the intention of the tax. The idea is to spur a transition of technology, especially to more efficient homes and electric car technology. If you look at the links I posted above you'll see EV's are starting to sell rather well.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

Edited by christopera (12/03/18 02:11 PM)

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Re: France's carbon tax. [Re: christopera]
    #25654493 -

$7 a fucking gallon. Fuck man that’s insane. Apparently france has an insane tax burden for most workers. I hope macron resigns and this fuels a change from a globohomo banker to a populist. Why should illegal aliens be given more assistance than the citizenry?

Eco terrorism is part of the cult of “sustainable development”. All part of agenda 2030 to depopulate rural areas forcing the masses into megaregions. And force mass transit in cities. No cars. Just like 3rd world countries. California has already banned gasoline and coal electricity by 2045 as part of SB 100. An insane bill that will turn the lights off of millions and induce 3rd world living conditions for the poor and the working class. CA is also trying to ration our water to 50 gallons per household. Same marxist shit different country.

Heres JF translating protesters.



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