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InvisibleMrPink
Stranger
Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 124
Downloading music and movies illegally...
    #2520290 - 04/03/04 12:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I was just wondering what are your thoughts on downloading music and movies with people getting busted and all.


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Offlineaje
Why not?
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2520335 - 04/03/04 12:36 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I just bought three CD's online. I would have never heard of these bands if it wasn't for downloading music.


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OfflineInfrared
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2520343 - 04/03/04 12:40 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

all i have to say is...........fuck that

people will never stop downloading music for free, they're wasting their time


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When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:


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Offlineaje
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521016 - 04/03/04 10:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I have a friend who is sort of against copying CDs and things like that but he doesnt really preach against it. He felt apprehensive about letting another friend copy one of his RHCP cd's (his favorite band) because he wants them to be supported and all that. I agree with him tha that the artist should be supported, but with CDs there are so many people in front of the artist that are waiting to get the money. I also went through all the music I have downloaded to highlight the bands i would have heard of and possibly listen to and it was less then 1/4 of all my music. I would have only gone to two concerts in my life (five if you count ones my dad took me to when I was younger) if it wasn't for downloading music.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Registered: 05/08/03
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521026 - 04/03/04 10:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

the average artist doesn't get jack-shit for CD sales... most of that money goes to the record company. as well the cost of a CD is way inflated, because of the whole "advertising" industry that is behind the music industry. Canada just said it was OK, if i'm not mistaken. I think that downloading music has, if anything, increased record sales... it is quite hard to find an entire album on any P2P program, so if you like a band, you tend to purchase their CD. Take me, for example, I just bought Shpongle because I had downloaded a few tracks and really liked it. I think the whole idea of "intellectual patents" is simply bullshit...


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Invisiblehevvy_psi
groover

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 10,446
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521029 - 04/03/04 10:10 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

back in the day music was community property. a bard sang a song, and the song made its way through the community for all to enjoy. incredible music is being made today, by people who care about the message and the feeling more than the dollrs they'r eraking in. computers let the feeling and meaning spread uncontrollably to the masses. yay.


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egocentrism is bangin on the door
self-destructive selflessness
seeps out from the core
alone - eyes closed - an empty room
i'm curled on the floor
choose nothing, thus deciding
all the nothing i've in store.


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Offlineaje
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Krishna]
    #2521034 - 04/03/04 10:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Krishna said:
the average artist doesn't get jack-shit for CD sales... most of that money goes to the record company. as well the cost of a CD is way inflated, because of the whole "advertising" industry that is behind the music industry. Canada just said it was OK, if i'm not mistaken. I think that downloading music has, if anything, increased record sales... it is quite hard to find an entire album on any P2P program, so if you like a band, you tend to purchase their CD. Take me, for example, I just bought Shpongle because I had downloaded a few tracks and really liked it. I think the whole idea of "intellectual patents" is simply bullshit...





Thank you very much for backing me up. Especially your first sentence. I'm gonna have to show my friend this thread. When I told him that artists dont get any money from the sales and that it all goes to the record company he says, "well they should get their money because they're cool, since they're associated to the chili peppers and must care about them". I immediately responded "you really think they care about the chili peppers artistically? They just want the money that they can make from them so they promote them."


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521075 - 04/03/04 10:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

When they start charging reasonable prices for cds, I'll start buying them. Until that day, fuck the man.


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Offlineaje
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521161 - 04/03/04 11:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Speaking of downloading music. If I downloaded an entire album, Does anybody know what program I can use to split it into the individual songs?


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Anonymous

Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2521164 - 04/03/04 11:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well said.

I have over 2k mp3's

I did the math and that would roughly equal around 123 cd's at about 2,000 dollars..

Thats like a car...just for music?....
Give me a break. It would be a lot more than that price too..because I'd have to buy even more cd's by an artist just to get the good songs.

I think eventually in the future songs will be released somehow on the internet or by other virtual means rather than by some physical device..how that will work out economically I do not know.


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Invisiblesakura
Aussie Expat

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 592
Loc: Japan
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521186 - 04/03/04 11:23 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I stopped file-sharing some time ago...  But, rest assured you CAN get whole albums on the p2p networks :wink:

Usually they are ripped to mp3 and then zipped as whole albums.  I use a freeware proggie called FreeRip to put my own cd's on the HD.

You can even download the covers and the cd images and if you're lucky enough to have a disk printer (I do :wink: ), you end up with something that looks pretty damn close to the original and sounds exactly like it.


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Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)


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Offlinemanna_man
High onlife.....andcrack

Registered: 06/10/03
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521271 - 04/03/04 12:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Apparently, its only illegal to download music in the states. Here in Canada they have no law against it. Sucks to be you guys...  :grin:


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This post is protected under copyrite law.All above content is strictly the property of ?manna_man.Any infringement of copyright property is strictly prohibited.Any violators will be stretched, shot, and then vaporized into a state of anti-matter, where they will cease to exist.


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Offlineaje
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521314 - 04/03/04 01:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Another reason why I'm going to move to canada sometime.


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OfflineWildCardsRevenge
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: aje]
    #2521427 - 04/03/04 02:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I actually worked it out once to about much money i've spent on CD's and music. I also worked it out to how much money was spent on bad CD's or CD's that were just one hit wonders. The total came out ot be like $3000 wasted.

Now thanks to downloading I can listen before I buy and if it is the case of a one hit wonder then I can skip buying the CD and wait until I find something I like.

I've actually bought more CD's thanks to the web because i've been exposed to music I never would have heard before IE Shpongle and the postal service and dry kill logic. I've also avoided spending money on bad CD's or one hit wonders!


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InvisiblePapaverS
Madmin Emeritus?

Registered: 06/01/02
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Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Krishna]
    #2521483 - 04/03/04 02:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

> I think the whole idea of "intellectual patents" is simply bullshit...

[sacrasm]
Hmm... Interesting concept... So, you are suggesting that musicians only be compensated for live performances, and that the creative act of song-writing, and studio recording, should be completely devalued and eliminated?

Are you also suggesting that writers only be compensated when they actually make the paper for the book, and print the book itself? That all that sitting around actually writing the thing sounds like fun, so they shouldn't be compensated for it.

In other words, intellectual property is a bullshit concept, and artists should have to actually go out and work for a living like the butcher and plumber? That anything that can be stored as bits is worthless because it can be copied, and that the only things of real value in the world are actual objects like butter, guns, and computers. That the creative process is silly; sounds like fun; and doesn't seem like it require any effort -- therefor there should be no financial compensation for it.

The musician should be out endlessly touring; the writer should become a printer; the movie director start directing live theater; and the software programmer make an income from repairing old computers...

Or perhaps, you are suggesting that we go back to the old tried-and-true system of patronage, instead of a consumptive consumer economy based on a healthy middle-class. All we need to do is find some new Kings and get the good old Catholic Church back in our lives...

Yes, I can see your arguments here... They make sense, and they don't seem like rationalizations to justify stealing music, movies, books, and software, at all...
[/sarcasm]

Please excuse the sarcastic polemics above, but it was kind of fun... :wink:

I do realize that this isn't going to be a very popular opinion, and I'm sorry, boys and girls, but the bottom line is, that it's theft! :frown:

It doesn't really matter, if you don't like the big record companies, the big movie studios, the big publishing houses, and the big software companies. It doesn't really matter, if you hate capitalism and all it stands for. It doesn't really matter, if you think that artists, writers, musicians, directors, producers, programmers, are all lazy louts who contribute nothing to society, and should go find real jobs and join the proletariat. It doesn't really matter what you think -- legally, it is theft (yes, even in canada -- who I believe subscribes to international copyright and trademark law), and morally it is a little weak.

You can rationalize it all you want, but it is still theft. Therefor, you should feel a little guilty about it -- like I do, when I download something I haven't paid for -- and try to purchase stuff when you can. :smile:

This is not an opinion that I have come to lightly or suddenly. I have wrestled with this issue for the better part of twenty-five years now -- since the personal computer revolution began, and I was a teenager who both bootlegged software, and also struggled to make an income from writing software.

It's a tough one, and the above are simply my opinions. Ultimately, you will all have to make this moral decision for yourselves. In some ways, you can never really understand it, unless you have tried to be on the other side, and make a living from the creative act. I've been lucky enough to have had some royalties for different endeavors, in different media, over the years, and I think that: intellectual property and the royalty system works, and is a very good system of compensation for the creative act, which basically is spec-work.

I really don't know what else to say on the matter. After 25 years of thinking about this myself, it seems obvious to me that it is wrong (no matter how you rationalize it), but that it is also inevitable to some extent -- Hell, I do it -- so one should strive to participate in it as little as one consciously can, and buy things when at all possible...

Ok, I'm done, you can hurl your slings and arrows of outrageous indignation now...

Let 'em fly, boys and girls!? :grin:

*This post and all replies are sole the intellectual property of Papaver's Grist For The Mill Holding Company, of Paris, New York, and Hong Kong. All international copyright and trademark rights apply, and are hereby held in perpetuity. Portions of this post may be reproduced for educational purposes with written permission. Void where prohibited by law. Objects in mirror may be closer than they appear.


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InvisiblePapaverS
Madmin Emeritus?

Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: WildCardsRevenge]
    #2521498 - 04/03/04 02:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

WildCardsRevenge said:
I actually worked it out once to about much money i've spent on CD's and music. I also worked it out to how much money was spent on bad CD's or CD's that were just one hit wonders. The total came out ot be like $3000 wasted.

Now thanks to downloading I can listen before I buy and if it is the case of a one hit wonder then I can skip buying the CD and wait until I find something I like.

I've actually bought more CD's thanks to the web because i've been exposed to music I never would have heard before IE Shpongle and the postal service and dry kill logic. I've also avoided spending money on bad CD's or one hit wonders!




Yes, I can see that, and that's probably one of the reasons that I do occasionally download a little bit. That, and I also use it for research downloading old songs and people's covers of them, when I've turned a song into a "project"... :wink:

Personally, I think that's fine, if you ultimately pay for the stuff by the artists you enjoy and plan on listening to. I'd never think of ripping off Neil Young or Tom Waits for instance... :laugh:


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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Papaver]
    #2521644 - 04/03/04 03:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Using your own logic, taping a song off the radio in order to listen to a few times is an act of stealing. Using your own logic, video-taping a tv show because you were at work is theft and an act worthy of punishment.

In the realm of intangible media, I think these acts as well as p2p sharing is only theft if the acquired media is used for commerical reasons. If someone were to record a dozen Simpsons episodes with their VCR and then sell them on a street corner by the hundreds, then that is theft. I think home, personal (i.e. non-commerial) use is simply listening or watching not stealing.

Keep in mind that it is rarely the artists themselves that are angered by p2p sharing, rather the bigwig executives. I think this says alot.

here's a good article to read - it is the perspective a prolific recording/performing artist (Ian Mackaye) regarding p2p sharing: http://www.downhillbattle.org/interviews/ian_mackaye.html


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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OfflineInfrared
sleeping
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Xochitl]
    #2521657 - 04/03/04 03:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup:


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When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:


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InvisiblePapaverS
Madmin Emeritus?

Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Xochitl]
    #2521793 - 04/03/04 04:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Xochitl said:
Using your own logic, taping a song off the radio in order to listen to a few times is an act of stealing. Using your own logic, video-taping a tv show because you were at work is theft and an act worthy of punishment.




Hmm... I hate to disagree, but that is not what I was saying at all...

Actually, songs played on the radio are involved in a complicated royalty system, which is supported by advertising revenue; programs aired on commercial television have been paid for by advertising revenue; movies and programming on cable and satellite television have been paid for by subscriber service fees. In ALL of those cases, some revenue has been returned to the source of the media -- usually the artist/creative staff on some level.

To better clarify, the gist of my feelings on the matter is: that if you download something for personal enjoyment for free, and/or without commercial/advertising support, basically circumventing the entire financial reward system to the artist, then that is a moral decision that you have to live with.

To further clarify, I don't think it's bad to sample around for CDs you ultimately intend on purchasing. The thing that bothers me, is the folks who simply never buy anything, and seem to feel that music/art/literature/movies/software is something of no actual value, for which the artist/creator needs no actual compensation. That sort of attitude bothers me, and there is nothing that you are going to say to change that fact.

I'm glad that you are comfortable in your beliefs, that this activity does not financially hurt the artist, and that they are all ok with it. Unfortunately, I cannot share your certainty in this area. I can see no way to rationalize cheating the creative person artist/writer/musician/etc out of their compensation.

I'm not going to sit here and defend the record companies, or capitalism, or distribution/advertising costs, or studio costs, or the way things work in general. However, I am going to give a little shout out to the people who make the music, art, literature, movies, etc, and the fact that what they do has value, and deserves compensation.

It's basically like this. Each individual knows what they are doing; why they are doing it; and should be able to figure out the consequences of their actions. If someone thinks it's ok to collect volumes of free entertainment from their favorite artist without any cost or compensation, then that's fine by me. However, that is not how I feel, and I do have to live with myself. Hence, my purchases far outweigh my downloads...

In other words, feel free to think, act, and rationalize, however you want. I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just stating my point of view on the matter, but like I said, I knew by even answering in this thread, that I'm going to take some flak, because I'm tampering with people's perceived god-given right to free entertainment regardless of economic consequences to the creative people behind the entertainment, and economic structures which enable those people to produce work... :wink:

PS: I really don't like having to take the same side as the RIAA and the MPAA, here, as they are obviously anachronistic dinosaurs who have a history of artist abuse. Howfuckingever, it just seems logical to me, that if I download all my albums and don't buy them, then I am ripping off the very artists that I appreciate. In a tertiary economy, stealing bits isn't much different than stealing apples. Seems like bad karma to me...


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OfflineTurd
Dr. Rock

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1,909
Loc: Vulva, WA
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521853 - 04/03/04 05:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

about 2 years ago I was up to my eyeballs in the movie and music piracy rings.... was a member of one of the core ripping groups. I won't say what I did, as it would probably incriminate me, but I stopped doing it because I didn't really feel like going to jail for something that didn't even exist in any physical state.

After meeting and speaking with some of the top people in the piracy world, I will say right now that they will never be stopped. The RIAA may be able to get people to stop using Kazaa, but simply can't stop it. The people behind it are far too intelligent and connected.

I still buy music, but only from private labels, as I refuse to support the large music companies that heartlessly lock bands into unfair contracts, in the end giving them jack shit. I've done a lot more than the average p2p user to fight those bastards, and I wish I could do more.

GO TO CONCERTS

BUY MERCHANDISE OFF YOU FAVORITE BAND'S WEB SITE

SUPPORT THE MUSICIANS, NOT THE RECORD COMPANIES


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