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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Papaver]
    #2522445 -

Quote:
Actually, songs played on the radio are involved in a complicated royalty system, which is supported by advertising revenue; programs aired on commercial television have been paid for by advertising revenue; movies and programming on cable and satellite television have been paid for by subscriber service fees. In ALL of those cases, some revenue has been returned to the source of the media -- usually the artist/creative staff on some level.


So, recording a Simpsons episode with a VCR is not theft because of a paid advertisement to the local FOX affiliate? If that is in fact what you are arguing, then following the same line of logic, p2p sharing is not theft either because the music was originally purchased at one point and "some revenue has been returned to the source of the media -- usually the artist/creative staff on some level."

As any performing and touring artist will tell you, money is hardly (if at all) made through physical sales (i.e. cds, vinyl) but rather through touring/performing. CD sales support the record label but hardly the artists themselves (penny on the dollar).

As Brian Eno recently pointed out, the new means of infomation-transmission that the internet has created pretty much liberates artists from having to deal with a record label as they were once required to - and the industry realizes this. They realize their own eventual irrelevence, so they are grasping to control and define the new means of music transmission and distribution.

An artist can simply post their music on their personal site (or the site of an independent label) and then support themselves via touring. The only need for a 3rd party would be in the way of marketing and management (which would essentially be the same business model as what independent labels currently engage in).

Look at the success that touring and music-sharing brought to the Grateful Dead, etc.

If sharing music were theft, and the sales of music was supposed to support artist, then what about dead artists? Surely a long-removed estate has not enaged in any creativity, so why should people be forced to pay the estate in order to enjoy their dead relatives work? Seems like estates are the greedy leeches and theives, if you ask me.

Digital engagement is a new paradigm and terms such as theft are practically archaic - we need to hash out with our own definitions and boundaries and morality. The old morality is like old pants from the back of the closet - they just dont fit well and are full of holes.


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon

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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Xochitl]
    #2522701 -

yAy! We made it to a second page! :laugh:

Quote:
So, recording a Simpsons episode with a VCR is not theft because of a paid advertisement to the local FOX affiliate?


Jesus Christ, dude! Study the fucking industry for christ's sake! That's not even a remotely valid retort of anything I said, or based on anything resembling the truth in terms of the flow of money in the industry. You managed to miss my fucking point about advertising supply compensation for the artist completely, and I think you are also seriously missing the spirit of what I am trying to say here... :frown:

How exactly do you think the people who produce the Simpson's get paid? They get paid by the Fox Network, who receives money from both national advertisers and affiliate advertising. Do you assume that they do it for fucking free? You seem to have totally missed my point about advertising producing revenue to reward the hard work of the creative staff in that case, which is something that downloading does not do...

I'm sorry, what is your argument again, for not purchasing entertainment, and supporting the artists who make it?

1) That creative people don't really work, like brick layers do, so they shouldn't get paid?

2) That you heard some sob story, about some artist who signed a bad deal, and is making pennies on the dollar, therefor you are justified in your actions across the board? Therefor, the many, many artists who make MOST of their livelihood from recording and publishing royalties -- the Neil Youngs, Bob Dylans, Pink Floyds, Lou Reeds, etc, are part of the problem, and should be punished by your personal boycott wrath?

3) That you can simply get away with it, and therefor normal moral considerations don't apply?

I'm sorry, but like I said, you can go and download all the free stuff you want to, and rationalize it however you see fit. I'm not your daddy; I'm not your conscience; and I'm not a lawyer for the fucking RIAA! I really don't care how you choose to live your life. As John Lennon said: "What every gets you through the night, is alright, it's alright." :laugh:

Just to sum up your argument: Paradigm Shift = It's ok to rip off artists, especially if they're too dumb to reject the specific aspects of the recording industry, which you don't happen to like, based on some third-party hearsay information, or the quoted statements of a few people that happen to appear to you to agree with your point of view. Viva la Revolution! The end justifies the means. Bits are free. Anyone to do with major record labels (i.e. Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Grateful Dead, Pink Floyd et al) are either, blind sheep being lead to slaughter, and fascists helping to further enslave the people. Only buy "Indie," and rip-off the rest, with reckless abandon and absolute caprice and malice of forethought! Stay the course! A thousand points of light!

Gotcha, baby!

It makes sense. I don't know how I could have been deluded into actually supporting these recording artist fat cats, and their apartheidian ways. Hey, let's get pissed off at Crosby, Stills, & Nash again for getting rich -- we haven't given them a good thrashing for that in over 30 years! :laugh:

Live long and prosper -- at the expense of others... :cool:

PS: Is it ok, if I steal houses and cars too, if I can figure out how to get away with it? After all they're only made of atoms, and I could almost argue that electrons (bits) and atoms (matter) are both made up of nothing but vibrating strings, and are henceforth both intangible and the worthless product  of someone else's imagination and silly petty labor -- I mean what does that have to do with me; my self-centered view of the world; and my god-given right to enjoy myself at the expense of others, right? I want my free entertainment, damn it, and I want it now! And while we're at it, give me some free food too! Hey where's my cardboard sign? Free content, and free housing! Down with capitalism! Down with rewards! Down with ownership! Up with mini-skirts! Hey, this is fun! :laugh:

Come on, now, everyone...

Down with capitalism! Down with rewards! Down with ownership! Up with mini-skirts!? :laugh:

*All rights reserved. Transcripts of this post are available from Burrell's transcripts. Mr. Papaver's wardrobe by Botany 500. Pregnant women, or women who are considering getting pregnant, should not handle broken tablets. If erection persists for more than 4 hours, then immediate medical attention should be sought.


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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2522735 -

Post deleted by user's request.

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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2522748 -

ITs Good.

Two words for you: USENET BINARIES!


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BigUpRadio
WorldReggaeShow
DreaderThanDread - Listen!
(druqs said) don't get arsey, just get RC.

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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Its Pat]
    #2523077 -

Post deleted by user's request.

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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: ]
    #2523305 -

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised!? :laugh:

Because I stole the television set. It's a nice 32" Sony Trinitron, that I grabbed in the last indian casino riots. I'm watching a lousy remake of the Thomas Crown Affair on it right now, but lousy remakes of classic movies is another subject we can debate at a later time. However, I would also like to work artificial colorization into the discussion as well, as I think that is a travesty, a sham, and a mockery -- perhaps even a mockery of a sham, but I'm not sure about that. I will have to give it some thought. I was once at a ranch in Paraguay where they trained these talking dogs for use in unpredictable mexican sitcoms. To see the dedication of the trainers and the loyalty of these fine dogs was quite inspiring, and by inspiring, I mean that it touched something deep inside of me. It was like somebody suddenly clicked a light-switch, and I was alive for the first time in my life. I was truly alive in a way that before was previously unknown to me. It was as if all my life had been leading up to that one moment -- my mind locked in perfect synchronicity with all of the universe -- thoughts that had past eluded me were now flooding in faster than I could assimilate them, and then it occurred to me, that the answer to all of life's problems, to all of our emptiness and despair, as a species, was actually very simple. All that was required for complete and eternal happiness was...


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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Papaver]
    #2523616 -

Papaver said:
Quote:
...if you download something for personal enjoyment for free, and/or without commercial/advertising support, basically circumventing the entire financial reward system to the artist, then that is a moral decision that you have to live with...


I feel no moral burden for having 'appropriated' music and software and thus depriving 'poor starving artists' (like RHCP) and 'struggling companies' (like Sony) of their hard earned revenue.


If I had reason to believe that this was a truly struggling, 'Up-And-Coming' musician, I would cheerfully pay full price for their music and would not feel comfortable about stealing it (Yes... It IS stealing).


If I found a wallet with $100 and looked through the other stuff and found rego papers for a Merc and the address was in the most expensive part of town, I would most certainly keep the money and send the wallet back to them. This has never happened, but I once DID find a wallet with $100 (and a low income earners card and buss passes for 3 kids...), I took it straight to the police station (with the money).


My morals are not necessarily those which the government would wish me to have, but they are very real nonetheless...


--------------------
Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)

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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Papaver]
    #2523881 -

It is quite telling, my friend, when an individual increasingly refuses to maintain a simple, inconsequential debate on a contemporary issue without resorting to an inflated, emotional response full of sarcasm, cursing, strawmen, hyperbole, and self-righteousness thinly disguised as humor...guess that's how it goes when you always have the last word on your own turf. Please keep it to a minimum :heart: this is the pub afterall.

But I digress...back to the issue at hand.

Quote:
Jesus Christ, dude! Study the fucking industry for christ's sake! That's not even a remotely valid retort of anything I said, or based on anything resembling the truth in terms of the flow of money in the industry. You managed to miss my fucking point about advertising supply compensation for the artist completely



you said: Actually, songs played on the radio are involved in a complicated royalty system, which is supported by advertising revenue; programs aired on commercial television have been paid for by advertising revenue; movies and programming on cable and satellite television have been paid for by subscriber service fees. In ALL of those cases, some revenue has been returned to the source of the media -- usually the artist/creative staff on some level....

....How exactly do you think the people who produce the Simpson's get paid? They get paid by the Fox Network, who receives money from both national advertisers and affiliate advertising. Do you assume that they do it for fucking free?

Once again:

Would you consider taping one Simpsons episode on a VCR to be an act of theft and worthy of punishment? If not, what is the difference between this and downloading the very same episode via a p2p network?

Is the difference the paid-commericals and my own cable subscription? What if I were to record an episode via my tv antannae (no cable subscription)? Is VCR recording via tv antannae for simple, non-commerical use considered theft but VCR recording on a cable is not?

What if I were to use a cassette tape to record a song off the radio for non-commerical use (i.e. listening to a dozen times and then later erasing the tape)? Certainly I have paid no subscriber fees nor had anything to do with adverts being aired on the radio - or in other words, not providing financial compensation to the creative artists/production crew. Would this be a criminal action that warrants punishment? Would utilizing and possessing this music-filled cassette tape be immoral? Furthermore, how exactly would this act negatively affect the artist and/or production crew? If I had to pay to listen to radio, I dont think I would.

Do you see the difference between listening to this cassette tape on a personal, non-commerical level a handful of times and mass-dubing this tape and selling it by the hundreds in streetmarkets in Bangkok?

Quote:
what is your argument again, for not purchasing entertainment, and supporting the artists who make it?



My argument is: downloading music for simple, personal, non-commerical use is not an act of theft, nor does it necessarily hurt the artists, nor does it hurt CD sales.

Quote:
A study of file-sharing's effects on music sales says online music trading appears to have had little part in the recent slide in CD sales.

For the study, released Monday, researchers at Harvard University and the University of North Carolina tracked music downloads over 17 weeks in 2002, matching data on file transfers with actual market performance of the songs and albums being downloaded. Even high levels of file-swapping seemed to translate into an effect on album sales that was "statistically indistinguishable from zero," they wrote. http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5181562.html?tag=nefd_top



Oh, and I do support the artists that I listen to (and dont listen to). I see live acts at least four times a month. Always have & always will. Keep in mind, this is where most artists make their living.

Quote:
1) That creative people don't really work, like brick layers do, so they shouldn't get paid?



I think artists should definitely receive compensation if they so desire. I am simply arguing the current model of music-compensation is naturally becoming more and more outdated due to technological innovation and in need of revamping. I also think that if we are are honest about rewarding our favorite artists, we would see that CD purchases are hardly the most efficient and effective method to do so.

Quote:
That you heard some sob story, about some artist who signed a bad deal, and is making pennies on the dollar, therefor you are justified in your actions across the board?



Look into major-label contracts and you'll see artists being ripped off is quite common. There was a book published by MaxiumumRocknRoll over a decade ago regarding this very subject - I believe it has been reissued several times since. I recommend it.

Quote:
Anyone to do with major record labels (i.e. Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Grateful Dead, Pink Floyd et al) are either, blind sheep being lead to slaughter, and fascists helping to further enslave the people.



Dont put words in my mouth.

Those artists are from a past era and engaged in older music-business models. If Dylan were to be up-and-coming today, I would bet that he'd avoid a major label and go independent for the sake of creative control and perhaps to maintain a political stance against the inherent stifling of popular culture by the monolithic, "politically-correct," profit driven, music industry. Would you agree that Dylan would stay true to himself and his roots if practicle and possible?

peace out.


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon

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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Xochitl]
    #2523900 -

Musicians could offer their music freely on the Net as 'shareware' (please make a donation - suggested amount $10 - still much more than they'd get from the record label) and make their pocket-money from merchandising and advertising on their websites...


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Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)

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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Papaver]
    #2523922 -

Papaver said:
I do realize that this isn't going to be a very popular opinion, and I'm sorry, boys and girls, but the bottom line is, that it's theft! :frown:

It doesn't really matter, if you don't like the big record companies, the big movie studios, the big publishing houses, and the big software companies. It doesn
't really matter, if you hate capitalism and all it stands for. It doesn't really matter, if you think that artists, writers, musicians, directors, producers, programmers, are all lazy louts who contribute nothing to society, and should go find real jobs and join the proletariat. It doesn't really matter what you think -- legally, it is theft (yes, even in canada -- who I believe subscribes to international copyright and trademark law), and morally it is a little weak.

You can rationalize it all you want, but it is still theft. Therefor, you should feel a little guilty about it -- like I do, when I download something I haven't paid for -- and try to purchase stuff when you can. :smile:


I agree with you on what you said about music and movies.  However, I think software is different.  Particularly big ticket software. Let me explain my thinking, and you can tell me if you believe this is just "rationalization" or if you agree with me.

First, what is stealing?  Stealing is when you take something from someone without compensation, thus hurting them materially.  Would you agree?

Now, say I download a big ticket software package such as 3dsm, AutoCAD, or ProE/ProM, or Xilinx.  All of those programs are in the multi-thousand dollar price range per license (although, I would argue that Xilinx is such a shitty and buggy program, they should pay me for the pain and suffering I endure while using it).  Anyway, if I pirate a copy of AutoCAD from kazaa, at first thought, you would think that I just robbed AutoDesk out of almost $3500!!!  However, Assuming you agree with my earlier definition of "theft", did I really hurt AutoDesk?  I would have to say NO!!.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that if anything, I have actually helped them.  Here is my reasoning.

That $3500 was never theirs to begin with.  When software companies say shit like "We lose X amount of millions of dollars a year to software piracy", they assume that If all those people that pirated copies of heir software hadn't been able to pirate it, they would have paid for a license.  What I am saying is, I don't consider pirating big ticket software titles stealing, since I am not hurting the companies or creative talent that produce that software, since I would not have paid the $3500 license fee either way.  If I was not able to pirate it, I would just live without it.  However, since I did pirate the program, I am now able to learn it freely.  This gives me a better chance of landing a job in a field where I would have to use that software package.  Then the company I work for would buy another license, they otherwise would not have purchased (assuming they don't have a site license).  So now, AutoDesk has just made another $3500 as a direct result of me pirating a copy of AutoCAD.


Some people liken this to "Well, I don't have $100,000 for a Mercedes, so I will just go steal one, since I wouldn't pay for it either way."  I think that is two very different things, since stealing a Mercedes directly hurts the company that makes it, whereas pirating big ticket software does not.

Do you see what I'm saying?

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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2524092 -

Papaver.... Ok no time to write a decent response quite yet, as I am very hungover and dinner is sitting waiting for me. But, I see the point that you made in a nice and sarcastic method... however, I think that the fact that in our society, the work of a "creative" person (I dunno if you have read "The Human Condition" by Hannah Arendt, but she makes a distinction between the three parts of the Vita Activa - labour, work, and action.. she calls things that are "creative" work (ie writing, art, music, etc is what she calls "work" - something that adds to the worldy artifice of human existence, and something that attempts to overcome the humanly condition of mortality).. check out the book for an interesting argument regarding all of this) - but back to the point... the fact that "creative" work must be justified as labour, must be something you "do for a living" - and must show itself to be utiltarian in nature, I think this is a horrible turn of things. No longer is the artist seen as valuable to society for the nature of what they do, but instead they must justify what they do, commercialize what they do, and become litteraly nothing more than whores for the "industry." When I say "intellectual patents are bullshit" i didn't mean it in the "oohh im cool and against society!!!" sense, I meant it in the sense that all human action is now labour and not work. OK this argument doesn't make so much sense unless you have read the whole thing... after dinner I'll come back and try to summarize things.
Or while I'm eating, read "The Human Condition" by Hannah Arendt and then I'll come back to clarify my opinions.
In the words of the Governor of California - "I'll be back!"


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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Krishna]
    #2524185 -

Oops, I actually got a little belligerent in one of my earlier posts, and I apologize to the people I was addressing, the poor anonymous lurkers who were subjected to my pabulum, and to the gods, in general, for making such a distasteful display on their watch... :frown:

Oh well, I guess the subject touches a nerve in me, and I have very few nerves left... :wink:

My only point is, that creative types, in general, make things that can be very easily distributed for free, and I think people should try and look at the big picture in terms of downloading, copying, and cracking stuff. Entertainment isn't an entitlement, and people work hard and dedicate their lives to the struggle to create things to make our lives more rich, textured, and interesting. These people deserve to be rewarded, but this sort of decisions is really a personal one, and one should act in accordance with their own principles, and what they think is right... :smile:

Besides I really hate finding myself on the same side as the RIAA and MPAA, but oh well... C'est la vie... :smirk:

In case anybody missed it, when I stated it earlier, I've done it myself, and on many levels over the years, but I try to keep it to a minimum anymore, and actually buy things when I can, as I feel these artists deserve my support -- especially those who's work I truly enjoy. Like most things, it seems to me to be a matter of balance, and whereas I shop around by downloading things, most of the stuff I like, I actually buy...

That's all I really have to say on the matter. I'm going to get back to my talking dog project now. I actually made great progress last night. I did get the dog to talk, which was truly amazing in itself, but unfortunately he's speaking french, so I can't understand him... :crazy:


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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2524301 -

Wow, this is one hell of a circular argument....

I download music and movies...but the large majority of the music I've downloaded, I already own in CD form.  And much of the music that I have downloaded but don't own in CD form?  Those are the CDs I'm planning on buying soon.  I've always felt guilty about having mp3s on my computer or listening to a burned CD if I really like the artist.  I go to concerts when I can, but I usually just go out and buy the CD to show my appreciation.  I don't know anything of record companies or where the money goes....it just makes me feel better about what I do. 
The movies I have downloaded I already own, but at home, in VHS form, which I can't play here in my little dorm room due to the lack of a video player.
I owe illegal downloading a whole ton of thanks.  Without it, I would never have discovered Shpongle, Sigur Ros, Portishead, Esthero, Elliot Smith, Sneaker Pimps, and Mars Volta.  I own CDs of all of these artists because of illegal downloading...except Shpongle.  That was a very recent discovery. 
So, if anything, I spend more money on CDs than I would without my kazaa lite.

BOO-YAH!

-Atreau :rolleyes:

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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Atreau]
    #2527077 -

I've been downloading since napster and very
seldom pay for anything thats not pirated in
some shape or form, from my operating system
to the music i'm listening to is illegal in
some sense. As far as music go'es i've decided
for some strange reason to start giving the artist
back something for all the years of pleasure i've
had from them. If you see a band 3 times and you've
a few of there downloaded cds then it's time to
repay them in some way so i buy the odd cd.
As was said if they dropped prices on all cds
dvds and software then people would start buying.

I mean look at software prices, right out of fuckin
order, over ?100 for windows, over ?50 for nero who
the fuck in their right mind would pay those prices.
bastards the lot of them


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We're Bought and Sold
For English Gold

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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: scotsman1]
    #2527196 -

Quote:
That $3500 was never theirs to begin with. When software companies say shit like "We lose X amount of millions of dollars a year to software piracy", they assume that If all those people that pirated copies of heir software hadn't been able to pirate it, they would have paid for a license


I wholeheartedly agree, and would extend that argument to music downloads: the only situation in which the illegal download of a song or album could morally be considered theft is if the downloader fully intended to buy the cd but did not as a direct result of the download. This situation, at least in my experience, is rare to say the least. In terms of my own habits, it's non-existent. I download a huge variety of music, from ridiculous britney spears videos to insanely frenetic anime soundtracks. If these downloads were not available, I certainly would not buy these products. However, if there is a cd released that I truly wish to purchase, I do so: I enjoy high quality sound, tracklists, cd art, etc. and also seek to reimburse the artists who entertain me.

While undoubtedly some on this forum do not follow my habits, and download cds instead of buying them, research, such as the links posted by Xochitl, show that very few people do this. Most download at a rate that far surpasses both their ability and desire to purchase music, yet maintain their original purchasing habits. Thus, there is no "loss of revenue" to the artists involved, as these specific vehicles of entertainment can be multiplied indefinitely at zero cost.

-Odium

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