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InvisibleMrPink
Stranger
Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 124
Downloading music and movies illegally...
    #2520290 - 04/03/04 12:17 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I was just wondering what are your thoughts on downloading music and movies with people getting busted and all.


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Offlineabhi
Why not?
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Registered: 10/11/03
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2520335 - 04/03/04 12:36 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I just bought three CD's online. I would have never heard of these bands if it wasn't for downloading music.


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OfflineInfrared
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Registered: 07/15/02
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2520343 - 04/03/04 12:40 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

all i have to say is...........fuck that

people will never stop downloading music for free, they're wasting their time


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When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:


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Offlineabhi
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521016 - 04/03/04 10:03 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I have a friend who is sort of against copying CDs and things like that but he doesnt really preach against it. He felt apprehensive about letting another friend copy one of his RHCP cd's (his favorite band) because he wants them to be supported and all that. I agree with him tha that the artist should be supported, but with CDs there are so many people in front of the artist that are waiting to get the money. I also went through all the music I have downloaded to highlight the bands i would have heard of and possibly listen to and it was less then 1/4 of all my music. I would have only gone to two concerts in my life (five if you count ones my dad took me to when I was younger) if it wasn't for downloading music.


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
Loc: oakland
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521026 - 04/03/04 10:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

the average artist doesn't get jack-shit for CD sales... most of that money goes to the record company. as well the cost of a CD is way inflated, because of the whole "advertising" industry that is behind the music industry. Canada just said it was OK, if i'm not mistaken. I think that downloading music has, if anything, increased record sales... it is quite hard to find an entire album on any P2P program, so if you like a band, you tend to purchase their CD. Take me, for example, I just bought Shpongle because I had downloaded a few tracks and really liked it. I think the whole idea of "intellectual patents" is simply bullshit...


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Invisiblehevvy_psi
groover

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 10,446
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521029 - 04/03/04 10:10 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

back in the day music was community property. a bard sang a song, and the song made its way through the community for all to enjoy. incredible music is being made today, by people who care about the message and the feeling more than the dollrs they'r eraking in. computers let the feeling and meaning spread uncontrollably to the masses. yay.


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egocentrism is bangin on the door
self-destructive selflessness
seeps out from the core
alone - eyes closed - an empty room
i'm curled on the floor
choose nothing, thus deciding
all the nothing i've in store.


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Offlineabhi
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Krishna]
    #2521034 - 04/03/04 10:13 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Krishna said:
the average artist doesn't get jack-shit for CD sales... most of that money goes to the record company. as well the cost of a CD is way inflated, because of the whole "advertising" industry that is behind the music industry. Canada just said it was OK, if i'm not mistaken. I think that downloading music has, if anything, increased record sales... it is quite hard to find an entire album on any P2P program, so if you like a band, you tend to purchase their CD. Take me, for example, I just bought Shpongle because I had downloaded a few tracks and really liked it. I think the whole idea of "intellectual patents" is simply bullshit...





Thank you very much for backing me up. Especially your first sentence. I'm gonna have to show my friend this thread. When I told him that artists dont get any money from the sales and that it all goes to the record company he says, "well they should get their money because they're cool, since they're associated to the chili peppers and must care about them". I immediately responded "you really think they care about the chili peppers artistically? They just want the money that they can make from them so they promote them."


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
Inhale to theChief
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521075 - 04/03/04 10:35 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

When they start charging reasonable prices for cds, I'll start buying them. Until that day, fuck the man.


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Yeah spinnin' around again
yea caught in a tailspin


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Offlineabhi
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521161 - 04/03/04 11:11 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Speaking of downloading music. If I downloaded an entire album, Does anybody know what program I can use to split it into the individual songs?


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Anonymous

Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2521164 - 04/03/04 11:13 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Well said.

I have over 2k mp3's

I did the math and that would roughly equal around 123 cd's at about 2,000 dollars..

Thats like a car...just for music?....
Give me a break. It would be a lot more than that price too..because I'd have to buy even more cd's by an artist just to get the good songs.

I think eventually in the future songs will be released somehow on the internet or by other virtual means rather than by some physical device..how that will work out economically I do not know.


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Invisiblesakura
Aussie Expat

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 592
Loc: Japan
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521186 - 04/03/04 11:23 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I stopped file-sharing some time ago...  But, rest assured you CAN get whole albums on the p2p networks :wink:

Usually they are ripped to mp3 and then zipped as whole albums.  I use a freeware proggie called FreeRip to put my own cd's on the HD.

You can even download the covers and the cd images and if you're lucky enough to have a disk printer (I do :wink: ), you end up with something that looks pretty damn close to the original and sounds exactly like it.


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Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)


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Offlinemanna_man
High onlife.....andcrack

Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 481
Loc: Vancouver
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521271 - 04/03/04 12:38 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Apparently, its only illegal to download music in the states. Here in Canada they have no law against it. Sucks to be you guys...  :grin:


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This post is protected under copyrite law.All above content is strictly the property of ?manna_man.Any infringement of copyright property is strictly prohibited.Any violators will be stretched, shot, and then vaporized into a state of anti-matter, where they will cease to exist.


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Offlineabhi
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521314 - 04/03/04 01:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Another reason why I'm going to move to canada sometime.


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OfflineWildCardsRevenge
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: abhi]
    #2521427 - 04/03/04 02:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I actually worked it out once to about much money i've spent on CD's and music. I also worked it out to how much money was spent on bad CD's or CD's that were just one hit wonders. The total came out ot be like $3000 wasted.

Now thanks to downloading I can listen before I buy and if it is the case of a one hit wonder then I can skip buying the CD and wait until I find something I like.

I've actually bought more CD's thanks to the web because i've been exposed to music I never would have heard before IE Shpongle and the postal service and dry kill logic. I've also avoided spending money on bad CD's or one hit wonders!


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InvisiblePapaverS
Madmin Emeritus?

Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Krishna]
    #2521483 - 04/03/04 02:40 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

> I think the whole idea of "intellectual patents" is simply bullshit...

[sacrasm]
Hmm... Interesting concept... So, you are suggesting that musicians only be compensated for live performances, and that the creative act of song-writing, and studio recording, should be completely devalued and eliminated?

Are you also suggesting that writers only be compensated when they actually make the paper for the book, and print the book itself? That all that sitting around actually writing the thing sounds like fun, so they shouldn't be compensated for it.

In other words, intellectual property is a bullshit concept, and artists should have to actually go out and work for a living like the butcher and plumber? That anything that can be stored as bits is worthless because it can be copied, and that the only things of real value in the world are actual objects like butter, guns, and computers. That the creative process is silly; sounds like fun; and doesn't seem like it require any effort -- therefor there should be no financial compensation for it.

The musician should be out endlessly touring; the writer should become a printer; the movie director start directing live theater; and the software programmer make an income from repairing old computers...

Or perhaps, you are suggesting that we go back to the old tried-and-true system of patronage, instead of a consumptive consumer economy based on a healthy middle-class. All we need to do is find some new Kings and get the good old Catholic Church back in our lives...

Yes, I can see your arguments here... They make sense, and they don't seem like rationalizations to justify stealing music, movies, books, and software, at all...
[/sarcasm]

Please excuse the sarcastic polemics above, but it was kind of fun... :wink:

I do realize that this isn't going to be a very popular opinion, and I'm sorry, boys and girls, but the bottom line is, that it's theft! :frown:

It doesn't really matter, if you don't like the big record companies, the big movie studios, the big publishing houses, and the big software companies. It doesn't really matter, if you hate capitalism and all it stands for. It doesn't really matter, if you think that artists, writers, musicians, directors, producers, programmers, are all lazy louts who contribute nothing to society, and should go find real jobs and join the proletariat. It doesn't really matter what you think -- legally, it is theft (yes, even in canada -- who I believe subscribes to international copyright and trademark law), and morally it is a little weak.

You can rationalize it all you want, but it is still theft. Therefor, you should feel a little guilty about it -- like I do, when I download something I haven't paid for -- and try to purchase stuff when you can. :smile:

This is not an opinion that I have come to lightly or suddenly. I have wrestled with this issue for the better part of twenty-five years now -- since the personal computer revolution began, and I was a teenager who both bootlegged software, and also struggled to make an income from writing software.

It's a tough one, and the above are simply my opinions. Ultimately, you will all have to make this moral decision for yourselves. In some ways, you can never really understand it, unless you have tried to be on the other side, and make a living from the creative act. I've been lucky enough to have had some royalties for different endeavors, in different media, over the years, and I think that: intellectual property and the royalty system works, and is a very good system of compensation for the creative act, which basically is spec-work.

I really don't know what else to say on the matter. After 25 years of thinking about this myself, it seems obvious to me that it is wrong (no matter how you rationalize it), but that it is also inevitable to some extent -- Hell, I do it -- so one should strive to participate in it as little as one consciously can, and buy things when at all possible...

Ok, I'm done, you can hurl your slings and arrows of outrageous indignation now...

Let 'em fly, boys and girls!? :grin:

*This post and all replies are sole the intellectual property of Papaver's Grist For The Mill Holding Company, of Paris, New York, and Hong Kong. All international copyright and trademark rights apply, and are hereby held in perpetuity. Portions of this post may be reproduced for educational purposes with written permission. Void where prohibited by law. Objects in mirror may be closer than they appear.


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InvisiblePapaverS
Madmin Emeritus?

Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: WildCardsRevenge]
    #2521498 - 04/03/04 02:48 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

WildCardsRevenge said:
I actually worked it out once to about much money i've spent on CD's and music. I also worked it out to how much money was spent on bad CD's or CD's that were just one hit wonders. The total came out ot be like $3000 wasted.

Now thanks to downloading I can listen before I buy and if it is the case of a one hit wonder then I can skip buying the CD and wait until I find something I like.

I've actually bought more CD's thanks to the web because i've been exposed to music I never would have heard before IE Shpongle and the postal service and dry kill logic. I've also avoided spending money on bad CD's or one hit wonders!




Yes, I can see that, and that's probably one of the reasons that I do occasionally download a little bit. That, and I also use it for research downloading old songs and people's covers of them, when I've turned a song into a "project"... :wink:

Personally, I think that's fine, if you ultimately pay for the stuff by the artists you enjoy and plan on listening to. I'd never think of ripping off Neil Young or Tom Waits for instance... :laugh:


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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Papaver]
    #2521644 - 04/03/04 03:41 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Using your own logic, taping a song off the radio in order to listen to a few times is an act of stealing. Using your own logic, video-taping a tv show because you were at work is theft and an act worthy of punishment.

In the realm of intangible media, I think these acts as well as p2p sharing is only theft if the acquired media is used for commerical reasons. If someone were to record a dozen Simpsons episodes with their VCR and then sell them on a street corner by the hundreds, then that is theft. I think home, personal (i.e. non-commerial) use is simply listening or watching not stealing.

Keep in mind that it is rarely the artists themselves that are angered by p2p sharing, rather the bigwig executives. I think this says alot.

here's a good article to read - it is the perspective a prolific recording/performing artist (Ian Mackaye) regarding p2p sharing: http://www.downhillbattle.org/interviews/ian_mackaye.html


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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OfflineInfrared
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Xochitl]
    #2521657 - 04/03/04 03:46 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:


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When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:


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InvisiblePapaverS
Madmin Emeritus?

Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Xochitl]
    #2521793 - 04/03/04 04:45 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Xochitl said:
Using your own logic, taping a song off the radio in order to listen to a few times is an act of stealing. Using your own logic, video-taping a tv show because you were at work is theft and an act worthy of punishment.




Hmm... I hate to disagree, but that is not what I was saying at all...

Actually, songs played on the radio are involved in a complicated royalty system, which is supported by advertising revenue; programs aired on commercial television have been paid for by advertising revenue; movies and programming on cable and satellite television have been paid for by subscriber service fees. In ALL of those cases, some revenue has been returned to the source of the media -- usually the artist/creative staff on some level.

To better clarify, the gist of my feelings on the matter is: that if you download something for personal enjoyment for free, and/or without commercial/advertising support, basically circumventing the entire financial reward system to the artist, then that is a moral decision that you have to live with.

To further clarify, I don't think it's bad to sample around for CDs you ultimately intend on purchasing. The thing that bothers me, is the folks who simply never buy anything, and seem to feel that music/art/literature/movies/software is something of no actual value, for which the artist/creator needs no actual compensation. That sort of attitude bothers me, and there is nothing that you are going to say to change that fact.

I'm glad that you are comfortable in your beliefs, that this activity does not financially hurt the artist, and that they are all ok with it. Unfortunately, I cannot share your certainty in this area. I can see no way to rationalize cheating the creative person artist/writer/musician/etc out of their compensation.

I'm not going to sit here and defend the record companies, or capitalism, or distribution/advertising costs, or studio costs, or the way things work in general. However, I am going to give a little shout out to the people who make the music, art, literature, movies, etc, and the fact that what they do has value, and deserves compensation.

It's basically like this. Each individual knows what they are doing; why they are doing it; and should be able to figure out the consequences of their actions. If someone thinks it's ok to collect volumes of free entertainment from their favorite artist without any cost or compensation, then that's fine by me. However, that is not how I feel, and I do have to live with myself. Hence, my purchases far outweigh my downloads...

In other words, feel free to think, act, and rationalize, however you want. I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just stating my point of view on the matter, but like I said, I knew by even answering in this thread, that I'm going to take some flak, because I'm tampering with people's perceived god-given right to free entertainment regardless of economic consequences to the creative people behind the entertainment, and economic structures which enable those people to produce work... :wink:

PS: I really don't like having to take the same side as the RIAA and the MPAA, here, as they are obviously anachronistic dinosaurs who have a history of artist abuse. Howfuckingever, it just seems logical to me, that if I download all my albums and don't buy them, then I am ripping off the very artists that I appreciate. In a tertiary economy, stealing bits isn't much different than stealing apples. Seems like bad karma to me...


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OfflineTurd
Dr. Rock

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1,909
Loc: Vulva, WA
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2521853 - 04/03/04 05:07 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

about 2 years ago I was up to my eyeballs in the movie and music piracy rings.... was a member of one of the core ripping groups. I won't say what I did, as it would probably incriminate me, but I stopped doing it because I didn't really feel like going to jail for something that didn't even exist in any physical state.

After meeting and speaking with some of the top people in the piracy world, I will say right now that they will never be stopped. The RIAA may be able to get people to stop using Kazaa, but simply can't stop it. The people behind it are far too intelligent and connected.

I still buy music, but only from private labels, as I refuse to support the large music companies that heartlessly lock bands into unfair contracts, in the end giving them jack shit. I've done a lot more than the average p2p user to fight those bastards, and I wish I could do more.

GO TO CONCERTS

BUY MERCHANDISE OFF YOU FAVORITE BAND'S WEB SITE

SUPPORT THE MUSICIANS, NOT THE RECORD COMPANIES


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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Papaver]
    #2522445 - 04/03/04 07:50 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Actually, songs played on the radio are involved in a complicated royalty system, which is supported by advertising revenue; programs aired on commercial television have been paid for by advertising revenue; movies and programming on cable and satellite television have been paid for by subscriber service fees. In ALL of those cases, some revenue has been returned to the source of the media -- usually the artist/creative staff on some level.




So, recording a Simpsons episode with a VCR is not theft because of a paid advertisement to the local FOX affiliate? If that is in fact what you are arguing, then following the same line of logic, p2p sharing is not theft either because the music was originally purchased at one point and "some revenue has been returned to the source of the media -- usually the artist/creative staff on some level."

As any performing and touring artist will tell you, money is hardly (if at all) made through physical sales (i.e. cds, vinyl) but rather through touring/performing. CD sales support the record label but hardly the artists themselves (penny on the dollar).

As Brian Eno recently pointed out, the new means of infomation-transmission that the internet has created pretty much liberates artists from having to deal with a record label as they were once required to - and the industry realizes this. They realize their own eventual irrelevence, so they are grasping to control and define the new means of music transmission and distribution.

An artist can simply post their music on their personal site (or the site of an independent label) and then support themselves via touring. The only need for a 3rd party would be in the way of marketing and management (which would essentially be the same business model as what independent labels currently engage in).

Look at the success that touring and music-sharing brought to the Grateful Dead, etc.

If sharing music were theft, and the sales of music was supposed to support artist, then what about dead artists? Surely a long-removed estate has not enaged in any creativity, so why should people be forced to pay the estate in order to enjoy their dead relatives work? Seems like estates are the greedy leeches and theives, if you ask me.

Digital engagement is a new paradigm and terms such as theft are practically archaic - we need to hash out with our own definitions and boundaries and morality. The old morality is like old pants from the back of the closet - they just dont fit well and are full of holes.


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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InvisiblePapaverS
Madmin Emeritus?

Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Xochitl]
    #2522701 - 04/03/04 09:02 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

yAy! We made it to a second page! :laugh:

Quote:

So, recording a Simpsons episode with a VCR is not theft because of a paid advertisement to the local FOX affiliate?




Jesus Christ, dude! Study the fucking industry for christ's sake! That's not even a remotely valid retort of anything I said, or based on anything resembling the truth in terms of the flow of money in the industry. You managed to miss my fucking point about advertising supply compensation for the artist completely, and I think you are also seriously missing the spirit of what I am trying to say here... :frown:

How exactly do you think the people who produce the Simpson's get paid? They get paid by the Fox Network, who receives money from both national advertisers and affiliate advertising. Do you assume that they do it for fucking free? You seem to have totally missed my point about advertising producing revenue to reward the hard work of the creative staff in that case, which is something that downloading does not do...

I'm sorry, what is your argument again, for not purchasing entertainment, and supporting the artists who make it?

1) That creative people don't really work, like brick layers do, so they shouldn't get paid?

2) That you heard some sob story, about some artist who signed a bad deal, and is making pennies on the dollar, therefor you are justified in your actions across the board? Therefor, the many, many artists who make MOST of their livelihood from recording and publishing royalties -- the Neil Youngs, Bob Dylans, Pink Floyds, Lou Reeds, etc, are part of the problem, and should be punished by your personal boycott wrath?

3) That you can simply get away with it, and therefor normal moral considerations don't apply?

I'm sorry, but like I said, you can go and download all the free stuff you want to, and rationalize it however you see fit. I'm not your daddy; I'm not your conscience; and I'm not a lawyer for the fucking RIAA! I really don't care how you choose to live your life. As John Lennon said: "What every gets you through the night, is alright, it's alright." :laugh:

Just to sum up your argument: Paradigm Shift = It's ok to rip off artists, especially if they're too dumb to reject the specific aspects of the recording industry, which you don't happen to like, based on some third-party hearsay information, or the quoted statements of a few people that happen to appear to you to agree with your point of view. Viva la Revolution! The end justifies the means. Bits are free. Anyone to do with major record labels (i.e. Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Grateful Dead, Pink Floyd et al) are either, blind sheep being lead to slaughter, and fascists helping to further enslave the people. Only buy "Indie," and rip-off the rest, with reckless abandon and absolute caprice and malice of forethought! Stay the course! A thousand points of light!

Gotcha, baby!

It makes sense. I don't know how I could have been deluded into actually supporting these recording artist fat cats, and their apartheidian ways. Hey, let's get pissed off at Crosby, Stills, & Nash again for getting rich -- we haven't given them a good thrashing for that in over 30 years! :laugh:

Live long and prosper -- at the expense of others... :cool:

PS: Is it ok, if I steal houses and cars too, if I can figure out how to get away with it? After all they're only made of atoms, and I could almost argue that electrons (bits) and atoms (matter) are both made up of nothing but vibrating strings, and are henceforth both intangible and the worthless product  of someone else's imagination and silly petty labor -- I mean what does that have to do with me; my self-centered view of the world; and my god-given right to enjoy myself at the expense of others, right? I want my free entertainment, damn it, and I want it now! And while we're at it, give me some free food too! Hey where's my cardboard sign? Free content, and free housing! Down with capitalism! Down with rewards! Down with ownership! Up with mini-skirts! Hey, this is fun! :laugh:

Come on, now, everyone...

Down with capitalism! Down with rewards! Down with ownership! Up with mini-skirts!? :laugh:

*All rights reserved. Transcripts of this post are available from Burrell's transcripts. Mr. Papaver's wardrobe by Botany 500. Pregnant women, or women who are considering getting pregnant, should not handle broken tablets. If erection persists for more than 4 hours, then immediate medical attention should be sought.


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2522735 - 04/03/04 09:10 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by user's request.


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OfflineIts Pat
Don't OD dipshit nub.
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Posts: 7,998
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2522748 - 04/03/04 09:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

ITs Good.

Two words for you: USENET BINARIES!


--------------------

BigUpRadio
WorldReggaeShow
DreaderThanDread - Listen!
(druqs said) don't get arsey, just get RC.


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Anonymous

Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Its Pat]
    #2523077 - 04/03/04 11:03 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

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InvisiblePapaverS
Madmin Emeritus?

Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: ]
    #2523305 - 04/04/04 12:34 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised!? :laugh:

Because I stole the television set. It's a nice 32" Sony Trinitron, that I grabbed in the last indian casino riots. I'm watching a lousy remake of the Thomas Crown Affair on it right now, but lousy remakes of classic movies is another subject we can debate at a later time. However, I would also like to work artificial colorization into the discussion as well, as I think that is a travesty, a sham, and a mockery -- perhaps even a mockery of a sham, but I'm not sure about that. I will have to give it some thought. I was once at a ranch in Paraguay where they trained these talking dogs for use in unpredictable mexican sitcoms. To see the dedication of the trainers and the loyalty of these fine dogs was quite inspiring, and by inspiring, I mean that it touched something deep inside of me. It was like somebody suddenly clicked a light-switch, and I was alive for the first time in my life. I was truly alive in a way that before was previously unknown to me. It was as if all my life had been leading up to that one moment -- my mind locked in perfect synchronicity with all of the universe -- thoughts that had past eluded me were now flooding in faster than I could assimilate them, and then it occurred to me, that the answer to all of life's problems, to all of our emptiness and despair, as a species, was actually very simple. All that was required for complete and eternal happiness was...


--------------------


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Invisiblesakura
Aussie Expat

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 592
Loc: Japan
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Papaver]
    #2523616 - 04/04/04 04:06 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Papaver said:
Quote:

...if you download something for personal enjoyment for free, and/or without commercial/advertising support, basically circumventing the entire financial reward system to the artist, then that is a moral decision that you have to live with...




I feel no moral burden for having 'appropriated' music and software and thus depriving 'poor starving artists' (like RHCP) and 'struggling companies' (like Sony) of their hard earned revenue.


If I had reason to believe that this was a truly struggling, 'Up-And-Coming' musician, I would cheerfully pay full price for their music and would not feel comfortable about stealing it (Yes... It IS stealing).


If I found a wallet with $100 and looked through the other stuff and found rego papers for a Merc and the address was in the most expensive part of town, I would most certainly keep the money and send the wallet back to them. This has never happened, but I once DID find a wallet with $100 (and a low income earners card and buss passes for 3 kids...), I took it straight to the police station (with the money).


My morals are not necessarily those which the government would wish me to have, but they are very real nonetheless...


--------------------
Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)


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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Papaver]
    #2523881 - 04/04/04 07:32 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

It is quite telling, my friend, when an individual increasingly refuses to maintain a simple, inconsequential debate on a contemporary issue without resorting to an inflated, emotional response full of sarcasm, cursing, strawmen, hyperbole, and self-righteousness thinly disguised as humor...guess that's how it goes when you always have the last word on your own turf. Please keep it to a minimum :heart: this is the pub afterall.

But I digress...back to the issue at hand.

Quote:

Jesus Christ, dude! Study the fucking industry for christ's sake! That's not even a remotely valid retort of anything I said, or based on anything resembling the truth in terms of the flow of money in the industry. You managed to miss my fucking point about advertising supply compensation for the artist completely




you said: Actually, songs played on the radio are involved in a complicated royalty system, which is supported by advertising revenue; programs aired on commercial television have been paid for by advertising revenue; movies and programming on cable and satellite television have been paid for by subscriber service fees. In ALL of those cases, some revenue has been returned to the source of the media -- usually the artist/creative staff on some level....

....How exactly do you think the people who produce the Simpson's get paid? They get paid by the Fox Network, who receives money from both national advertisers and affiliate advertising. Do you assume that they do it for fucking free?


Once again:

Would you consider taping one Simpsons episode on a VCR to be an act of theft and worthy of punishment? If not, what is the difference between this and downloading the very same episode via a p2p network?

Is the difference the paid-commericals and my own cable subscription? What if I were to record an episode via my tv antannae (no cable subscription)? Is VCR recording via tv antannae for simple, non-commerical use considered theft but VCR recording on a cable is not?

What if I were to use a cassette tape to record a song off the radio for non-commerical use (i.e. listening to a dozen times and then later erasing the tape)? Certainly I have paid no subscriber fees nor had anything to do with adverts being aired on the radio - or in other words, not providing financial compensation to the creative artists/production crew. Would this be a criminal action that warrants punishment? Would utilizing and possessing this music-filled cassette tape be immoral? Furthermore, how exactly would this act negatively affect the artist and/or production crew? If I had to pay to listen to radio, I dont think I would.

Do you see the difference between listening to this cassette tape on a personal, non-commerical level a handful of times and mass-dubing this tape and selling it by the hundreds in streetmarkets in Bangkok?

Quote:

what is your argument again, for not purchasing entertainment, and supporting the artists who make it?




My argument is: downloading music for simple, personal, non-commerical use is not an act of theft, nor does it necessarily hurt the artists, nor does it hurt CD sales.

Quote:

A study of file-sharing's effects on music sales says online music trading appears to have had little part in the recent slide in CD sales.

For the study, released Monday, researchers at Harvard University and the University of North Carolina tracked music downloads over 17 weeks in 2002, matching data on file transfers with actual market performance of the songs and albums being downloaded. Even high levels of file-swapping seemed to translate into an effect on album sales that was "statistically indistinguishable from zero," they wrote.
http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5181562.html?tag=nefd_top




Oh, and I do support the artists that I listen to (and dont listen to). I see live acts at least four times a month. Always have & always will. Keep in mind, this is where most artists make their living.

Quote:

1) That creative people don't really work, like brick layers do, so they shouldn't get paid?




I think artists should definitely receive compensation if they so desire. I am simply arguing the current model of music-compensation is naturally becoming more and more outdated due to technological innovation and in need of revamping. I also think that if we are are honest about rewarding our favorite artists, we would see that CD purchases are hardly the most efficient and effective method to do so.

Quote:

That you heard some sob story, about some artist who signed a bad deal, and is making pennies on the dollar, therefor you are justified in your actions across the board?




Look into major-label contracts and you'll see artists being ripped off is quite common. There was a book published by MaxiumumRocknRoll over a decade ago regarding this very subject - I believe it has been reissued several times since. I recommend it.

Quote:

Anyone to do with major record labels (i.e. Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Grateful Dead, Pink Floyd et al) are either, blind sheep being lead to slaughter, and fascists helping to further enslave the people.




Dont put words in my mouth.

Those artists are from a past era and engaged in older music-business models. If Dylan were to be up-and-coming today, I would bet that he'd avoid a major label and go independent for the sake of creative control and perhaps to maintain a political stance against the inherent stifling of popular culture by the monolithic, "politically-correct," profit driven, music industry. Would you agree that Dylan would stay true to himself and his roots if practicle and possible?

peace out.


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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Invisiblesakura
Aussie Expat

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 592
Loc: Japan
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Xochitl]
    #2523900 - 04/04/04 07:52 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Musicians could offer their music freely on the Net as 'shareware' (please make a donation - suggested amount $10 - still much more than they'd get from the record label) and make their pocket-money from merchandising and advertising on their websites...


--------------------
Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)


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OfflineFirstAvailable
enthusiast
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Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 728
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Papaver]
    #2523922 - 04/04/04 08:31 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Papaver said:
I do realize that this isn't going to be a very popular opinion, and I'm sorry, boys and girls, but the bottom line is, that it's theft! :frown:

It doesn't really matter, if you don't like the big record companies, the big movie studios, the big publishing houses, and the big software companies. It doesn
't really matter, if you hate capitalism and all it stands for. It doesn't really matter, if you think that artists, writers, musicians, directors, producers, programmers, are all lazy louts who contribute nothing to society, and should go find real jobs and join the proletariat. It doesn't really matter what you think -- legally, it is theft (yes, even in canada -- who I believe subscribes to international copyright and trademark law), and morally it is a little weak.

You can rationalize it all you want, but it is still theft. Therefor, you should feel a little guilty about it -- like I do, when I download something I haven't paid for -- and try to purchase stuff when you can. :smile:




I agree with you on what you said about music and movies.  However, I think software is different.  Particularly big ticket software. Let me explain my thinking, and you can tell me if you believe this is just "rationalization" or if you agree with me.

First, what is stealing?  Stealing is when you take something from someone without compensation, thus hurting them materially.  Would you agree?

Now, say I download a big ticket software package such as 3dsm, AutoCAD, or ProE/ProM, or Xilinx.  All of those programs are in the multi-thousand dollar price range per license (although, I would argue that Xilinx is such a shitty and buggy program, they should pay me for the pain and suffering I endure while using it).  Anyway, if I pirate a copy of AutoCAD from kazaa, at first thought, you would think that I just robbed AutoDesk out of almost $3500!!!  However, Assuming you agree with my earlier definition of "theft", did I really hurt AutoDesk?  I would have to say NO!!.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that if anything, I have actually helped them.  Here is my reasoning.

That $3500 was never theirs to begin with.  When software companies say shit like "We lose X amount of millions of dollars a year to software piracy", they assume that If all those people that pirated copies of heir software hadn't been able to pirate it, they would have paid for a license.  What I am saying is, I don't consider pirating big ticket software titles stealing, since I am not hurting the companies or creative talent that produce that software, since I would not have paid the $3500 license fee either way.  If I was not able to pirate it, I would just live without it.  However, since I did pirate the program, I am now able to learn it freely.  This gives me a better chance of landing a job in a field where I would have to use that software package.  Then the company I work for would buy another license, they otherwise would not have purchased (assuming they don't have a site license).  So now, AutoDesk has just made another $3500 as a direct result of me pirating a copy of AutoCAD.


Some people liken this to "Well, I don't have $100,000 for a Mercedes, so I will just go steal one, since I wouldn't pay for it either way."  I think that is two very different things, since stealing a Mercedes directly hurts the company that makes it, whereas pirating big ticket software does not.

Do you see what I'm saying?


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2524092 - 04/04/04 11:39 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Papaver.... Ok no time to write a decent response quite yet, as I am very hungover and dinner is sitting waiting for me. But, I see the point that you made in a nice and sarcastic method... however, I think that the fact that in our society, the work of a "creative" person (I dunno if you have read "The Human Condition" by Hannah Arendt, but she makes a distinction between the three parts of the Vita Activa - labour, work, and action.. she calls things that are "creative" work (ie writing, art, music, etc is what she calls "work" - something that adds to the worldy artifice of human existence, and something that attempts to overcome the humanly condition of mortality).. check out the book for an interesting argument regarding all of this) - but back to the point... the fact that "creative" work must be justified as labour, must be something you "do for a living" - and must show itself to be utiltarian in nature, I think this is a horrible turn of things. No longer is the artist seen as valuable to society for the nature of what they do, but instead they must justify what they do, commercialize what they do, and become litteraly nothing more than whores for the "industry." When I say "intellectual patents are bullshit" i didn't mean it in the "oohh im cool and against society!!!" sense, I meant it in the sense that all human action is now labour and not work. OK this argument doesn't make so much sense unless you have read the whole thing... after dinner I'll come back and try to summarize things.
Or while I'm eating, read "The Human Condition" by Hannah Arendt and then I'll come back to clarify my opinions.
In the words of the Governor of California - "I'll be back!"


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InvisiblePapaverS
Madmin Emeritus?

Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Krishna]
    #2524185 - 04/04/04 12:43 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Oops, I actually got a little belligerent in one of my earlier posts, and I apologize to the people I was addressing, the poor anonymous lurkers who were subjected to my pabulum, and to the gods, in general, for making such a distasteful display on their watch... :frown:

Oh well, I guess the subject touches a nerve in me, and I have very few nerves left... :wink:

My only point is, that creative types, in general, make things that can be very easily distributed for free, and I think people should try and look at the big picture in terms of downloading, copying, and cracking stuff. Entertainment isn't an entitlement, and people work hard and dedicate their lives to the struggle to create things to make our lives more rich, textured, and interesting. These people deserve to be rewarded, but this sort of decisions is really a personal one, and one should act in accordance with their own principles, and what they think is right... :smile:

Besides I really hate finding myself on the same side as the RIAA and MPAA, but oh well... C'est la vie... :smirk:

In case anybody missed it, when I stated it earlier, I've done it myself, and on many levels over the years, but I try to keep it to a minimum anymore, and actually buy things when I can, as I feel these artists deserve my support -- especially those who's work I truly enjoy. Like most things, it seems to me to be a matter of balance, and whereas I shop around by downloading things, most of the stuff I like, I actually buy...

That's all I really have to say on the matter. I'm going to get back to my talking dog project now. I actually made great progress last night. I did get the dog to talk, which was truly amazing in itself, but unfortunately he's speaking french, so I can't understand him... :crazy:


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OfflineAtreau
wait....what?

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 81
Last seen: 16 years, 29 days
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: MrPink]
    #2524301 - 04/04/04 01:39 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Wow, this is one hell of a circular argument....

I download music and movies...but the large majority of the music I've downloaded, I already own in CD form.  And much of the music that I have downloaded but don't own in CD form?  Those are the CDs I'm planning on buying soon.  I've always felt guilty about having mp3s on my computer or listening to a burned CD if I really like the artist.  I go to concerts when I can, but I usually just go out and buy the CD to show my appreciation.  I don't know anything of record companies or where the money goes....it just makes me feel better about what I do. 
The movies I have downloaded I already own, but at home, in VHS form, which I can't play here in my little dorm room due to the lack of a video player.
I owe illegal downloading a whole ton of thanks.  Without it, I would never have discovered Shpongle, Sigur Ros, Portishead, Esthero, Elliot Smith, Sneaker Pimps, and Mars Volta.  I own CDs of all of these artists because of illegal downloading...except Shpongle.  That was a very recent discovery. 
So, if anything, I spend more money on CDs than I would without my kazaa lite.

BOO-YAH!

-Atreau :rolleyes:


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Offlinescotsman1
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Registered: 06/24/02
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Last seen: 1 year, 26 days
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: Atreau]
    #2527077 - 04/05/04 11:57 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I've been downloading since napster and very
seldom pay for anything thats not pirated in
some shape or form, from my operating system
to the music i'm listening to is illegal in
some sense. As far as music go'es i've decided
for some strange reason to start giving the artist
back something for all the years of pleasure i've
had from them. If you see a band 3 times and you've
a few of there downloaded cds then it's time to
repay them in some way so i buy the odd cd.
As was said if they dropped prices on all cds
dvds and software then people would start buying.

I mean look at software prices, right out of fuckin
order, over ?100 for windows, over ?50 for nero who
the fuck in their right mind would pay those prices.
bastards the lot of them


--------------------
We're Bought and Sold
For English Gold


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InvisibleOJK
Stranger
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Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 10,629
Re: Downloading music and movies illegally... [Re: scotsman1]
    #2527196 - 04/05/04 12:55 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

That $3500 was never theirs to begin with. When software companies say shit like "We lose X amount of millions of dollars a year to software piracy", they assume that If all those people that pirated copies of heir software hadn't been able to pirate it, they would have paid for a license




I wholeheartedly agree, and would extend that argument to music downloads: the only situation in which the illegal download of a song or album could morally be considered theft is if the downloader fully intended to buy the cd but did not as a direct result of the download. This situation, at least in my experience, is rare to say the least. In terms of my own habits, it's non-existent. I download a huge variety of music, from ridiculous britney spears videos to insanely frenetic anime soundtracks. If these downloads were not available, I certainly would not buy these products. However, if there is a cd released that I truly wish to purchase, I do so: I enjoy high quality sound, tracklists, cd art, etc. and also seek to reimburse the artists who entertain me.

While undoubtedly some on this forum do not follow my habits, and download cds instead of buying them, research, such as the links posted by Xochitl, show that very few people do this. Most download at a rate that far surpasses both their ability and desire to purchase music, yet maintain their original purchasing habits. Thus, there is no "loss of revenue" to the artists involved, as these specific vehicles of entertainment can be multiplied indefinitely at zero cost.

-Odium


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