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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2451344 -

GazzBut writes:

Which is why by the time politicians are spouting intelligence as fact it is not too much to ask for it to actually be fact. So when Powell and Rice stand up and make such bold pronouncements the information has normally been CHECKED AND VERIFIED and isnt based merely on the word of an Iraqi dissenter who has his own agenda.

How do you propose this checking and verifying be done? Ask Hussein to proofread the news release?

"Uh huh.. uh huh... looks good to me. Oh! ... wait a minute, Ms Rice. This part here isn't right. I don't have just VX and mustard gas. I also have Sarin and a pretty decent quantity of anthrax, too."

So you are saying that someone analysed the evidence in 2001, This analysis then lead to the pronouncements by Powell and Rice.
Then what happened? Somebody else analysed it a year later and decided that actually the very same evidence meant that Iraq were the greatest threat to world security since the nazis?

Yep. Come on, GazzBut, this can't possibly be news to you. The variety of opinions within the intelligence community are commonplace and widely reported.

How do you think things would have gone if Tony and George had been a little more honest?
like "We think Saddam may have stockpiles of wmd because a few of the people who are now in exile and hate Saddam with a passion have said so, although we havent got a second source on that"
That was the truth.

What was also the truth was that he failed to provide credible and verifiable proof of the destruction of all the chem and bio stocks he was known to have.

What was also the truth was that his generals believed that even if they didn't have the stuff in their brigade, the general a few miles away did. Come on, GazzBut, that fact has also been widely reported.

Id love to see a source on that one.

There have been countless quotes in this forum alone regarding that point. I have yet to see you -- or anyone -- provide a single quote from the head of any intelligence agency pre-March 19 2003 saying they knew Hussein had no chem or bio weaponry left. Baghdad Bob doesn't count.

pinky


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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2451701 -

What I am saying is that of course some intelligence will be unverified but unverified intelligence shouldnt be passed off as hard fact. How do you think things would have gone if Tony and George had been a little more honest?

Good point Gazz. It's been widely reported that the intelligence services really had no idea what was going on in Iraq. They had no people within the regime and were simply going on what the exiles like Chalabi told them or what Sharon's Israel saw fit to provide.

WARSAW - Poland, a key U.S. ally in Iraq, admitted on Thursday it felt misled into believing Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction

"Of course I feel a certain discomfort that we were misled about weapons of mass destruction," he said.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?section=WORLD&oid=47261

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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: Evolving]
    #2451707 -

Evolving said:
luvdemshrooms said:
Are they all liars?


Yep, every last one of 'em.  Lying is what they do, they're in politics.


:thumbup:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: Phred]
    #2453662 -

Quote:
How do you propose this checking and verifying be done? Ask Hussein to proofread the news release?



Well firstly they try and find more than one source for the information. Duh!

Quote:
Yep. Come on, GazzBut, this can't possibly be news to you. The variety of opinions within the intelligence community are commonplace and widely reported.





Please concentrate pinky. As with anything there will always be a difference of opinion but by the time the information is being passed off as truth by the government it should be truth and not something thats up for debate. For you to pass off Powell and Rice's comments as being caused by a difference of opinion in the intelligence community just seems like a weak attempt to bolster a crumbling belief system. Perhaps you shouldnt be so rigid?

Quote:
What was also the truth was that he failed to provide credible and verifiable proof of the destruction of all the chem and bio stocks he was known to have.




Whats that got to do with wehat we are talking about? As a side note its funny how the US govenrments idea of credible proof is so fluid isnt it? Saddam says he has no WMDs and allows inspectors into his country but this is not good enough proof. A couple of Iraqi exiles say he has got them and thats solid intelligence. Wake up man.

Quote:
What was also the truth was that his generals believed that even if they didn't have the stuff in their brigade, the general a few miles away did. Come on, GazzBut, that fact has also been widely reported.




Source please?
Quote:
There have been countless quotes in this forum alone regarding that point. I have yet to see you -- or anyone -- provide a single quote from the head of any intelligence agency pre-March 19 2003 saying they knew Hussein had no chem or bio weaponry left. Baghdad Bob doesn't count.





Try paying attention Pinky. Perhaps you should re read this thread and realise how idiotic your last statement actually was. Unless of course you think Powell and Rice were just offering an opinion off the top of their heads, not one that was taken from intelligence reports.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2453831 -

GazzBut writes:

Well firstly they try and find more than one source for the information. Duh!

Why do you believe there was just one source of information?

Whats that got to do with wehat we are talking about?

Good God this is boring. We've been around this mulberry bush what -- a hundred and fifty times in the last year or so?

It has everything to do with what we are talking about. Try to follow this chain of logic:

1) Hussein was known to have at the very least X tons of this agent, Y liters of that agent, Z factories, etc.
2) Hussein claimed he has destroyed X, Y and Z.
3) Inspectors are able to verify the destruction of A tons of this agent, B liters of that agent, and C factories.
4) A is less than X, B is less than Y, C is less than Z
5) Therefore, Hussein still has chem and bio weapons and the means to produce more.

Saddam says he has no WMDs and allows inspectors into his country but this is not good enough proof. A couple of Iraqi exiles say he has got them and thats solid intelligence. Wake up man.

Good God, this is boring. We have been around this mulberry bush what -- a hundred and fifty one times?

Try to follow this logic --

A magician puts his lovely assistant in a box and fires a pistol. The box is opened, the assistant is nowhere to be seen. Inspectors from the audience are allowed onstage. They cannot find her. Therefore, the lovely assistant no longer exists. The one you see at his next show is actually a clone.

No one in the audience finds it the least bit odd that often when one of the inspectors tells the magician, "We're going to look in that box over there now," the magician leaps in front of them, waving his arms frantically while stagehands cluster around the box in question for several minutes, then vanish into the wings. This process continues, except in the case of certain boxes where the magician flat out refuses to let the inspectors look at all, claiming they are his "private" boxes.

Yet the audience is still convinced the magician has told the truth -- the lovely asistant is indeed no longer. A couple of the stagehands later admit that they were moving the assistant from box to box, but they are ignored, since the audience wishes to believe the lovely assistant really is gone.

Source please

Look it up yourself. Links have been posted here to sources several times. Go to www.shroomery.org/archives and do a search through the archived PA&L posts. Or use Google if you prefer.

Unless of course you think Powell and Rice were just offering an opinion off the top of their heads, not one that was taken from intelligence reports.

From an earlier post in this thread:

Hey Pinky, just what is your take on the statements made in 2001 by Powell and Rice where both of them stated categorically that Iraq had been effectively contained and had no active wmd programs?

Since we already know that A is less than X, B is less than Y, and C is less than Z, it is not necessary for Hussein to have had continuously active WMD programs in order for him to have had WMDs.

I am still waiting for a statement from the head of an intelligence agency (other than the Iraqi intelligence agency) pre-March 2003 claiming Iraq had no WMDs.

pinky


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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: Phred]
    #2454171 -

it is not necessary for Hussein to have had continuously active WMD programs in order for him to have had WMDs.

Actually it is. Chemical and biological weapons become useless after short periods of time. Even more so when they are made with the rudimentary technology the Iraqis possessed.

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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: Phred]
    #2454211 -

pinksharkmark said:
No one in the audience finds it the least bit odd that often when one of the inspectors tells the magician, "We're going to look in that box over there now," the magician leaps in front of them, waving his arms frantically while stagehands cluster around the box in question for several minutes, then vanish into the wings. This process continues, except in the case of certain boxes where the magician flat out refuses to let the inspectors look at all, claiming they are his "private" boxes.



LOL! two thumbs up :smile:

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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: Phred]
    #2456403 -

Pinky you seem to be struggling to grasp the meaning of the word logic. Perhaps this may help?

Quote:
5) Therefore, Hussein still has chem and bio weapons and the means to produce more.



This most certainly is not the logical conclusion of the chain of events you describe. It remains indeterminate whether Saddam is telling the truth or not, although with each day passing it seems more likely that he may have been.

Then you try and ascribe logic to your poorly formulated analogy involving magicians, assistants and stagehands. deary me.
As I assume you are trying to link this analogy to reality can you please tell me who in reality are these stagehands who are telling the world they have been moving the wmds?

Quote:
I am still waiting for a statement from the head of an intelligence agency (other than the Iraqi intelligence agency) pre-March 2003 claiming Iraq had no WMDs.



The point is the assesment in 2001 was that Iraq posed no threat to the world yet 18 months later they were building nuclear weapons and had massive stockpiles of chem and bio weapons. You really think that this is simply due to the fluid nature of intelligence?
Doesnt it strike you as being slightly odd that this seems like the most accurate assesment, even though it is made 18 months earlier than the assesment that conveniently provides the excuse to go to war?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2456618 -

Quote:
It remains indeterminate whether Saddam is telling the truth or not, although with each day passing it seems more likely that he may have been.


What? You mean to say that there still is no proof positive?

:wtf:

:lol:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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