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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Are they all liars?
    #2444024 - 03/17/04 06:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Saddam Hussein's weapons
Walter E. Williams (archive)


March 17, 2004 | Print | Send


Listening to the political and media rhetoric about the war in Iraq, you?d think that only President Bush thought Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Here are just a few past statements made by Bush?s critics.


President Clinton (1998): "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."

Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright (February 1998): "Iraq is a long way from here, but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."

In 2002, Al Gore said, "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."

Also in 2002, Sen. Ted Kennedy said, "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."

Sen. John Kerry, Democratic presidential front-runner, said in 2002, "I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."

In January 2003, Kerry added, "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real."

The fact of the matter is that former President Clinton, as well as many members of Congress, believed, just as President Bush did, that Saddam Hussein possessed or was developing biological, chemical and nuclear weapons. The widespread attacks on President Bush are little more than political demagoguery and grandstanding and depend on public forgetfulness and ignorance to succeed.

Military intelligence will probably always be an inexact science. Let?s go back to President Roosevelt?s administration. By mid-1940, the "evidence" became so promising about Germany?s nuclear-weapons program that British and American scientists judged it imprudent to continue to publish new results. Further research in the United States and Britain was done in secret to prevent German scientists from using the findings to develop an atomic bomb of their own for use in the war then underway.

The frightening possibility that Germany might succeed in providing Hitler with a nuclear weapon was one of the driving forces for the U.S. Manhattan Project. It was also the reason for some of the strategic targeting during World War II, including heavy water facilities in Nazi-occupied Norway.

When World War II ended, it was discovered that Germany wasn?t nearly as close to developing an atomic bomb as intelligence experts had thought. Fortunately, back during that time, we didn?t have today?s hustling politicians and gullible public around to criticize either our war strategy or the atomic bombing of Japan. Back then, Americans were thankful we got the bomb first and used it to end the war.

Listening to today?s politicians and what goes for informed media commentary, George Bush should have waited for unambiguous proof that a megalomaniac tyrant like Saddam Hussein had nuclear-chemical-biological weapons. I?m wondering if that unambiguous proof sufficient for America?s political hustlers and gullible public would have been a mushroom cloud over one of our cities or millions of Americans suffering and dying from chemical or biological toxins.
Or do so many just not know the definition of the word liar?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2444107 - 03/17/04 06:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think this article has been posted and already laughed
out the building.

is it safe to assume that all quotes post 2002 were made
based on cheney's coached intelligence?

also, I'd like to point out that in 2000, both condoleeza
and powell were quoted as saying that hussein no longer
posed a threat to us or the region.

...the rest is simply embittered editorializing by some
doomsday quack.

great article!


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: afoaf]
    #2444115 - 03/17/04 06:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Weak, but if you want to toss all 2002 and earlier quotes out feel free.

That leaves this....
In January 2003, Kerry added, "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real."


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Are they all liars? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2444138 - 03/17/04 06:58 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:smirk:


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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2444502 - 03/17/04 08:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

In 2002, Al Gore said, "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."




I know, it's truly shameful. Didn't Mr. Bush say something similar?

Unfortunately, a year after the invasion of Iraq, the worlds most technologically advanced military force backed by thousands of millions of American tax-payer dollars have yet to turn up even one 'WMD'.

Maybe they are ALL liars...

((edit))

Quote:

In January 2003, Kerry added, "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real."




Bush vs. Kerry... sigh... what a choice....  :shake:


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


Edited by grib (03/17/04 08:53 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: grib]
    #2444617 - 03/17/04 09:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I know, it's truly shameful. Didn't Mr. Bush say something similar?



Yup. As shameful though are those who castigate Bush for having said the like yet those same individuals seem so willing to give Kerry and others a pass. Hypocrisy at it's best.


Quote:

Unfortunately, a year after the invasion of Iraq, the worlds most technologically advanced military force backed by thousands of millions of American tax-payer dollars have yet to turn up even one 'WMD'.



There may not be any to find, they may have been disposed of, they may have been transferred, or they may be buried somewhere in the desert where they never will be found.


Quote:

Maybe they are ALL liars...



Maybe so. They are politicians after all.


Quote:

Bush vs. Kerry... sigh... what a choice....



Believe it or not.... I share that sentiment.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2444677 - 03/17/04 09:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yup. As shameful though are those who castigate Bush for having said the like yet those same individuals seem so willing to give Kerry and others a pass. Hypocrisy at it's best. 




There are other choices. Unfortunately for the majority of my country men (I was born in the USA and my family has been here since 1684), they see only black and white... color would be nice... again, there are other choices...

Quote:

There may not be any to find, they may have been disposed of, they may have been transferred, or they may be buried somewhere in the desert where they never will be found. 




Quite true... what shall we do about our premier intelligence services? (Rhetorical question)

Quote:

Maybe so. They are politicians after all. 




Dead centre  :grin: I went to a little school in Texas named Tyler Street Christian Academy... I was always taught that to be in the employ of the government was a choice, a service to your people and your county. By choice that meant to SERVE the people... Those idealistic shits... I actually believed them for a while!

Quote:

Believe it or not.... I share that sentiment. 




I don't doubt it... it's been a while but we've had similar discussions :wink:


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2444733 - 03/17/04 09:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

doubly weak...

he says that he needs to be disarmed, that he is a brutal
dictator and that he is a threat.

what he doesn't say is that he is an imminent threat to
our nation, that he has WMD in his possession and that
we need to run into iraq, trampling diplomatic relations
with other nations so that we may unilaterally disarm
him, though he did back his president when he decided
to take that approach.

I'm still looking hard for your hypocrisy...


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,723
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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: afoaf]
    #2444807 - 03/17/04 10:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I'm still looking hard for your hypocrisy...




I guess you either see it or you don't.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2445638 - 03/18/04 01:19 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

There may not be any to find, they may have been disposed of, they may have been transferred, or they may be buried somewhere in the desert where they never will be found.




Starts to sound a lot like those who claim to see flying saucers and such.

"They DO exist! You should prove they don't!"

In science, such an argument is useless and flawed. It falls to the person making the claims to produce the proof. If no proof is produced...the claim cannot be held as true.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2445664 - 03/18/04 01:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Are they all liars?



Yep, every last one of 'em. Lying is what they do, they're in politics.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: trendal]
    #2445737 - 03/18/04 01:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Trendal writes:

Starts to sound a lot like those who claim to see flying saucers and such.

"They DO exist! You should prove they don't!"


They did exist at one time. No one -- including Hussein himself -- disputes that. The problem is that not all the ones known to have existed have been accounted for. That's what is so worrying.

It is possible that Hussein destroyed them all without telling anyone. Unless he did so all by himself without even his bodyguards around to witness it, then surely sooner or later some Iraqi will come forward and point to the site where they were destroyed. The site can be tested for residues and the destruction confirmed. Case closed.

But it is also possible they are no longer within Iraq's borders. It is also possible they are still within Iraq's borders but hidden so thoroughly that no one can possibly find them, hence are no longer a danger.

It falls to the person making the claims to produce the proof. If no proof is produced...the claim cannot be held as true.

But that's the entire point. Hussein had the burden of proof. It was up to him to provide credible and verifiable proof of the destruction of all the chem and bio weaponry he was known to have and admitted (after being caught more than once lying about them) having. He also had to prove the destruction of the programs and facilities involved in creating the stuff in the first place. Not just some of it; not even most of it; but all of it.

So -- Hussein claims there was none left. He failed to provide proof of his claim. Therefore, as you say, his claim is untrue.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: trendal]
    #2445751 - 03/18/04 01:54 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You should prove they don't!"

Luvdemlies has been pushing this for the last 12 months. Bush tells a lie and it's up to the rest of the world to "prove him wrong". I tried to find out what proof Luv would find beyond reasonable doubt but he played dodgeball. His position was even if you excavated the entire surface of the planet earth to a depth of a mile that still wouldn't prove Saddam didn't have WMD. (He could have smuggled them to Mars)

What can you do with someone as devoted to Bush's lies as that?  :smirk:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: Phred]
    #2445763 - 03/18/04 02:00 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ahh, yes pinky, though I have not made any comments about Saddams claims. Personally I think he's a dickhead and was lying. However I can't prove that myself.

Now Bush, as well, has the burden of proof falling on him. He claimed that Iraq had WMDs and posed an immediate thread, yet he has not proven this to date despite a years worth of expensive searching.

So basically I think they're both dickheads who lied to us.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: trendal]
    #2445861 - 03/18/04 02:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Even if they really beleived that Saddam had WMD they blatantly lied about the threat Iraq posed to the rest of the world. C. Rice said that no country can be a threat to USA because anyone who would dare to attack would be immediately "obliterated". (That's the word she used). Similar strategy of mutual assured destruction (MAD) prevented 3rd world war with soviet union. I presented these arguments here before the war but they didn't catch up much attention.
The political elite of USA, UK & co. lied about the reasons for war and exploited the Iraq WMD - they were sure they'll find some - to mislead the public.
The sad thing is that they won't be punished for it. They'll just made current figureheads (Bush and Blair) to look like morons and make people elect some new ones.


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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: zeronio]
    #2445934 - 03/18/04 03:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Zeronio writes:

Even if they really beleived that Saddam had WMD they blatantly lied about the threat Iraq posed to the rest of the world.

Lied? Tell that to Iran. Or Kuwait.

C. Rice said that no country can be a threat to USA because anyone who would dare to attack would be immediately "obliterated". (That's the word she used).

C. Rice was speaking of countries. Stateless terrorists operating from ever-changing bases of convenience in whatever country agrees to succor them are different.

Similar strategy of mutual assured destruction (MAD) prevented 3rd world war with soviet union.

MAD worked because the Soviets had no place else to go. Al Qaeda and their ilk have refuges in many Muslim countries.

The political elite of USA, UK & co. lied about the reasons for war and exploited the Iraq WMD - they were sure they'll find some - to mislead the public.

Sigh. We've been over this. First of all, if they (and virtually every other country in the world with an intelligence service) were sure they'd find some, then they weren't lying.

Second of all, Hussein was deposed because he refused to honor any -- that's right, not a single one -- of the terms of the 1991 conditional ceasefire. The condition which received the most attention was the one requiring him to provide credible and verifiable proof of the destruction of his known WMD stocks and of the programs and facilities which produced them and were capable of producing more. But that was not the only condition of the conditional ceasefire.

pinky


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Are they all liars? [Re: Phred]
    #2445951 - 03/18/04 03:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

it took 5000 years to find king tuts tomb,the desert is a great place to hide shit


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: Phred]
    #2446081 - 03/18/04 04:59 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

C. Rice was speaking of countries. Stateless terrorists operating from ever-changing bases of convenience in whatever country agrees to succor them are different.
MAD worked because the Soviets had no place else to go. Al Qaeda and their ilk have refuges in many Muslim countries.




Of course, I completely agree with you. The problem is that you're mixing the war against terrorism with the attack on Iraq. Even current administration now says that they never said that Saddam was linked to Al-Quaeda - quite contrary, he was their worst Arab enemy. The Iraq war is a total fiasco in terms of the war against terrorism.

Quote:

it took 5000 years to find king tuts tomb,the desert is a great place to hide shit



Yes, I don't doubt that, but saying that Iraq was a threat to USA is still a big lie. They had no means to deliver those WMD to USA and if they tried they would be nuked to hell.

Quote:

Second of all, Hussein was deposed because he refused to honor any -- that's right, not a single one -- of the terms of the 1991 conditional ceasefire.



Tell this to the families of the 10.000 Iraquis killed in conflict. They will understand and won't become suicide bombers.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,723
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Re: Are they all liars? [Re: trendal]
    #2446140 - 03/18/04 06:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Starts to sound a lot like those who claim to see flying saucers and such.



Actually, seeing as the first sentence was "There may not be any to find", that pretty much negates your "point".


Quote:

In science, such an argument is useless and flawed. It falls to the person making the claims to produce the proof. If no proof is produced...the claim cannot be held as true.



Interesting. So will we be seeing this from you when people actually make unprovable claims or will you be saving that just for those from the opposite side of the political fence? You will of course show me where I actually claimed the weapons do still exist?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,723
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Are they all liars? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2446149 - 03/18/04 06:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Bush tells a lie and it's up to the rest of the world to "prove him wrong".



As Trendal pointed out....
If no proof is produced...the claim cannot be held as true.
Can you prove he lied?


Quote:

His position was even if you excavated the entire surface of the planet earth to a depth of a mile that still wouldn't prove Saddam didn't have WMD.



Perhaps you could back that up with a link?


Quote:

(He could have smuggled them to Mars)



Actually PinocchiAl, the moon was the location you brought up, as well as Nessie and your hero.


See, it can be quite easy to show when someone lies, which is why you should give up the practice. Or would obsession be the correct word?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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