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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: Xlea321]
    #2387085 -

Says who?

any resistance which cannot inflict more than a few hundred casualties in almost a year is pretty dismal if you ask me. i believe there was a gallup poll a while back of baghdad showing that a large majority of baghdad-ers did not want the US to leave immediately.

The widespread ownership of arms in Afghanistan didn't stop them. Is there anything worth invading Yugoslavia for? Oil for example?

afghanistan was ruled by one of many militias. they were not popularly elected and didn't even have control over the entire country. toppling the taliban was an entirely different situation. invading a country of free people defended by a force of reasonably well-trained citizen soldiers (like switzerland) would be quite different.

what point is it you're trying to make?

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: ]
    #2387983 -

no. the russian populace was disarmed by soviet authorities in 1929.

Well the point was that the Russian army was instructed to fight to the last man. Don't you think the Russian army supported by tanks and an airforce presents a more formidable fighting force than swiss civilians armed with nothing more than small arms?

BTW, you are aware of the Nazi's policy with guerilla attacks I presume? For every german killed they would round up men, women and children and kill them. Would the swiss have the stomach for a guerilla war in that situation?

he's talking about adolf hitler's sentiments towards switzerland

No, he's cherry picking aspects that support his point and ignoring mountains of evidence that doesn't. Read the books Blood Money or Hitlers Silent Partners for a more accurate view.

The German state had exhausted all foreign exchange and Central Bank bullion by 1941. This precipitated a crisis which it overcame by looting the treasuries of occupied countries, melting down the bullion, stamping it with the Reichsbank symbol and funneling it to the Swiss. By November 1942, this smelting operation came to include large amounts of dental gold, jewelry, rings, etc. The gold was refined and returned to banks in the form of gold bars, mixing together personal gold with "monetary gold."

Switzerland was the only country that would accept the obviously looted gold. The Swiss National Bank, the country's central bank, acted as a clearinghouse by purchasing the gold in exchange for foreign currency. It charged 0.5 percent and sold the gold to other neutral European central banks at higher prices. According to recent reports, the Swiss National Bank in Bern knowingly took in $400 million ($3.9 billion in today's funds) in looted gold between 1939 and 1945 in outright violation of international law, which prohibits banks from fencing stolen goods. The commission alone netted the Swiss $20 million (about $200 million in today's currency).

But these transactions were just one aspect of the overall alliance between the Nazis and the Swiss. In 1941 the Swiss government adopted the Swiss-German clearing agreement, providing massive loans in the guise of credits for Swiss exporters. Meanwhile, the Swiss dramatically increased their own exports of military hardware, as the Germans required it.

German corporations that required a foreign front in order to conduct their business operations would routinely set up a Swiss subsidiary. One of hundreds of such entities was I.G. Farben, the world's biggest chemical manufacturer, which produced the poison gas for concentration camps as a "patriotic duty." It established a Swiss international company, I.G. Chemie, which was protected from sanctions.

Bower, with a great deal of justice, describes the Swiss as "economically integrated into the German state." This integration carried over to the political sphere as well. Shortly after the passage of the infamous Nuremberg laws in 1935--which began the policy of "Aryanization," including the erosion of Jewish citizenship and the legal plunder of Jewish assets--the Swiss petitioned the Germans to have all Jewish passports stamped prominently with the letter "J."

The Swiss authorities were already blocking Jewish emigration. As the persecution became extermination, the Swiss worked harder to seal their borders. Bower places the number of Jews who successfully escaped to Switzerland, only to be dispatched back across the border to the waiting Gestapo, at 30,000 or more. Meanwhile, Nazi officials freely crossed, depositing their loot on a regular basis. Only in those cases where the Nazis negotiated a good price from the Jews did the Swiss, as a general rule, permit their entry as refugees.

The Swiss financial agreements became an indispensable prop of the Nazi regime. But why was this permitted, and then overlooked by the Allies? And why was nothing done in the 1940s to provide justice to the Holocaust survivors?

Does this give you more idea of why Switzerland wasn't invaded? Paints kind of a different picture to Halbrooks "swiss obstinacy" bullshit doesn't it.

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: ]
    #2387987 -

any resistance which cannot inflict more than a few hundred casualties in almost a year is pretty dismal if you ask me

More americans have been killed in Iraq than were killed in the first three years of the Vietnam war.

invading a country of free people defended by a force of reasonably well-trained citizen soldiers (like switzerland) would be quite different.

So you are seriously saying that Hitler looked at Switzerland and then at Russia and said "Nah, those swiss don't have gun control. Lets take on Russia instead..". That it had nothing to do with the enormous financial benefits the Swiss provided for the Nazi's?

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: Xlea321]
    #2388454 -

When was the last time Switzerland was invaded? When was the last time the Swiss were engaged in a war on foreign soil, losing the lives of their young adults and draining the resources of the people at home?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: Evolving]
    #2388646 -

The Swiss have not been invaded because they are utterly craven and will pay tribute to any strong man. They should be severely sanctioned for their continuing refusal to adhere to international banking rules. There is more looted money in Swiss banks than in all the Cayman Island-type places put together. They have protected the assets of criminals for centuries. They are still hiding Nazi loot TODAY.


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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: Xlea321]
    #2389316 -

Well the point was that the Russian army was instructed to fight to the last man. Don't you think the Russian army supported by tanks and an airforce presents a more formidable fighting force than swiss civilians armed with nothing more than small arms?

BTW, you are aware of the Nazi's policy with guerilla attacks I presume? For every german killed they would round up men, women and children and kill them. Would the swiss have the stomach for a guerilla war in that situation?

point taken. a professional army is probably necessary to repel invaders. armed citizens are still a good last line of defense against invasions though, and the only line of defense against government oppression.

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: Xlea321]
    #2389428 -

More americans have been killed in Iraq than were killed in the first three years of the Vietnam war.

the US sent advisors to south vietnam as early as 1955. what date would you use as a starting point? before or after actual combat troops landed?

major deployments of combat troops have been in iraq for almost a year now and the iraqi resistance has killed less than 700 coalition troops.

they've managed to kill 9 coalition troops in the past month. shit. give me a rifle and i could probably do that. some resistance.

alex123 says:

"The widespread ownership of arms in Afghanistan didn't stop them. Is there anything worth invading Yugoslavia for? Oil for example?"

mushmaster says:

"afghanistan was ruled by one of many militias. they were not popularly elected and didn't even have control over the entire country. toppling the taliban was an entirely different situation. invading a country of free people defended by a force of reasonably well-trained citizen soldiers (like switzerland) would be quite different."

alex 123 says:

"So you are seriously saying that Hitler looked at Switzerland and then at Russia and said "Nah, those swiss don't have gun control. Lets take on Russia instead..". That it had nothing to do with the enormous financial benefits the Swiss provided for the Nazi's?"

where did that come from? i was trying to explain why taliban afghanistan vs. US-led coalition is not a good example of armed citizens defending against an invader. the reason is that the taliban itself was a totalitarian government barely holding onto its own power. i have no idea where this russia\switzerland non sequitor came from.

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: ]
    #2389881 -

point taken

And what about the point that Switzerland was of crucial financial importance to the Nazi's and that this was more likely to be the reason it wasn't invaded?

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: ]
    #2389885 -

where did that come from?

From your point that the Nazi's didn't invade Switzerland because of the widespread ownership of guns. Afghanistan also had widespread ownership of guns.

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: Xlea321]
    #2390292 -

And what about the point that Switzerland was of crucial financial importance to the Nazi's and that this was more likely to be the reason it wasn't invaded?

what was the financial reason for not invading them in world war one?

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: Xlea321]
    #2390294 -

From your point that the Nazi's didn't invade Switzerland because of the widespread ownership of guns.

i'm not so sure that's entirely accurate now. i still think that an armed populace is a good idea.

Afghanistan also had widespread ownership of guns.

yes, but afghanistan was controlled by different warring factions, and we sought to topple just one of them. it was a hell of a lot different than going into a country where there was a people unified against us, like north vietnam.

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2390543 -

zappaisgod said:
If we relied on militia our airforce would consist of biplanes. Of German or Soviet manufacture.



I fly a Cessna skyhawk sometimes, could I paint it green and mount soem guns on it?
Quote:
And if a good portion of Iraq's male citizens had rifles (what the hell are you talking about, they're citizenry has more guns than ours) they'd be dead. They can't compete with a trained, equipped true army. I think they would be referred to as "cannon fodder."


read:vietnam

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: Xlea321]
    #2390563 -

Alex123 said:
Well the point was that the Russian army was instructed to fight to the last man. Don't you think the Russian army supported by tanks and an airforce presents a more formidable fighting force than swiss civilians armed with nothing more than small arms?



Formidable on an open battle ground? Yes, certaintly. However, when the men with guns arent' wearing uniforms, and they can pick a spot anywhere that is 500-100 yards from the enemy "base", pick off 3-4 people and disappear, it quickly demoralizes the invading army. Mortar attacks can destroy tanks that are parked in "safe locations" from miles away, and again, they can disappear into the night. In my past military service, we used high powered riles to take out guidance devices on mounted missles (and their crews, if it came to that). Refer to "Red Dawn" to see more.
Quote:
BTW, you are aware of the Nazi's policy with guerilla attacks I presume? For every german killed they would round up men, women and children and kill them. Would the swiss have the stomach for a guerilla war in that situation?



Since the alternative would be to watch your children and families starve or be massacred anyway, I'm sure that they would have. The thing about retribution attakcs is that they work both ways. If the Nazi's would have rounded up (you didn't actually say a number of people there, might wanna fix that) 50 men women and children for each of theirs killed, they would need to be informed that each time that happens, more guerilla attacks would take place. The true purpose of "terrorism" (or guerilla warfare, depending on which side you are on) is to make the government, in this case the invading Nazis', crack down harder on the regular populace and make it easier for the "resistance" to recruit members. If you were an able bodied Swiss male, 18 years old, who was trying to stay neutral in the war, and then your family was murdered as retribution for a guerilla attack, you'd probably be much more likely to join the resistance, no?

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: ]
    #2390646 -

I live in Switzerland. Near my school, when military makes trainings, the ground is shaking. Also, every few days jets cruise around. Yes, else of every citizen from 18 to 45 I think that has his uniform and machine gun at home, they have a stable army. Also, I have heard that bridges are programmed to blow up, if the swiss people want to. Today my US History teacher told us (we were discussing World War 1) that a friend of his has seen a jet go into some mountain which opened (???), obviously landed there, and the peak closed, wtf. In the same class, like a month ago a local guy jumped and yelled "LISTEN" and we heard a siren. He paniced a little, but heh there was no war, most probably a test. Swiss is crazy yo :smile:
Peace out


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Cuba Libre

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: ]
    #2390664 -

mushmaster said:
point taken. a professional army is probably necessary to repel invaders. armed citizens are still a good last line of defense against invasions though, and the only line of defense against government oppression.


To repel invaders on the battlefield, it usually is a mixture of numbers, tactics and ability of soldiers. The goal of such warfare is to occupy a territory and ensure that the invader will not occupy said territory.

In guerilla warfare, or resistance warfare, the goals are to make the occupying army so restrictive in the freedoms they allow on their captors that more captors wil lwant to join the resistance movement. The goal of guerilla warfare isn't to strike large massive of troops and see who can inflict the most casualties, it is to strike the most opportune target with the minimal force needed to accomplish the goal.

If the Nazis were to have, say, 500,000 troops inside of Switzerland, and the swiss "resistance' was only 15,000 able bodied, armed men, obviously the first type of warfare would result in decimation of the resstance armed only with rifles and improvised explosives. However, lets say that the 15,000 men in the resistance follow the second course of action and do strictly guerilla attacks. Instead of sending a group of 500 men to secure a ridge, a group of 2-3 men could be sent to blow up a railroad bridge that the re-supply for the occuping army uses.

After reading Alex' information about what he thinks the reason was that Germany didn't invade Switzerland, I'm inclined to agree (wow, I never in my life thought I'd say that I agree with Alex) that the reason Hitler didn't invade is because Switzerland was more valuable as a behind-the-scenes accomplise rather than another occupied territory. However, the point remains the same. Armed resistance fighters with a minimal amount of training in firearms, improvised explosives, propaganda techniques, and with the will to win, could make it VERY VERY hard for an occupying army to exist.

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: T0aD]
    #2391334 -

damn, maybe that's why the swiss weren't invaded...

magical retractible mountaintop landing strips and
hideouts.

that's some james bond shit right there.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Re: national defense: the swiss model [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2392075 -

Vietnam wasn't a militia and ours was a slave army with no stomach for the fight. They had tons of cover and the support of the populace. Our army was not as overwhelming then as now. And we still took them out by better than ten to one. None of these are applicable to the present conflict.

I think a couple of shotguns under each wing would be awesome.


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