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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Nation contributions to tsunami victims
    #3577652 - 01/04/05 02:04 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

As of Jan. 4, 2004

LONDON (Reuters) -- Following is a list of monetary contributions pledged by governments and the World Bank to help Indian Ocean nations hit by the December 26 earthquake and tsunami, compiled from reports by Reuters bureaus and U.N. agencies:

(Million dollars)

African Union 0.10

Algeria 2.00

Australia 46.48

Austria 2.72

Bahrain 2.00

Britain 96.00

Bulgaria 0.14

Canada 33.00

China 60.42

Denmark 54.88

EU 40.81

Finland 6.12

France 56.18

Germany 27.21

Hungary 0.27

Ireland 13.62

Italy 95.00

Japan 500.00

Kuwait 10.00

Libya 2.00

Netherlands 34.00

New Zealand 3.60

Norway 180.00

Poland 1.00

Portugal 10.88

Qatar 25.00

Saudi Arabia 10.00

Singapore 3.10

Slovakia 0.23

Slovenia 0.11

South Korea 5.00

Spain 68.02

Sweden 80.00

Switzerland 23.81

Taiwan 5.25

Turkey 1.25

UAE 2.00

USA 350.00

Venezuela 2.00

World Bank 250.00

TOTAL: 1,940.73

hm.....

Indonesia is a very heavily Muslim nation and it was the hardest hit nation.

The U.S. has pledged 350 million so far. Saudi Arabia has pledged 10 million. Where is this Muslim brotherly love and support that we hear so much about? Why isn't Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, or any other oil rich Muslim country giving more aid? Should they be criticized as much as the U.S. has been during this whole tragedy?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3577970 - 01/04/05 03:27 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Canada already upped their contribution to at least 66 million, last I heard.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3578076 - 01/04/05 03:56 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

there is hardly a connection between saudi and indonesian culture - France and the US are both nations with deep roots into Christianity, but does that mean the US and France must maintain an affinity? Just because one nation is one religion doesnt mean there's some deep solidarity - why do you believe so? other than islamist and neo-con propaganda, who said anything of a "brotherly love" between Islamic nations? Surely there has been many wars between Islamic nations...


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: Vvellum]
    #3578093 - 01/04/05 04:05 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)


there is hardly a connection between saudi and indonesian culture - France and the US are both nations with deep roots into Christianity, but does that mean the US and France must maintain an affinity? Just because one nation is one religion doesnt mean there's some deep solidarity - why do you believe so?

other than islamist and neo-con propaganda, who said anything of a "brotherly love" between Islamic nations?

I constantly hear about Muslims being "concerned" about the plight of their fellow Muslim brothers around the world. There are significant amounts of Muslims who go to train for and fight jihad. It is common for Arab Muslims to give money to Palestinian causes. I got the impression that there is an overall feeling of brotherhood(barring some instances of hostility) between Muslims.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3578352 - 01/04/05 07:48 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

hundered of thousands dead...great chance to score cheap and meaningless political/religous points.

What a crap thread.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3579001 - 01/04/05 12:43 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I constantly hear about Muslims being "concerned" about the plight of their fellow Muslim brothers around the world.




If this is true, what does this have to do with their governments? Do you really think what their governments do are a true reflection of the people?

Quote:

There are significant amounts of Muslims who go to train for and fight jihad.




Significant? umm, I wouldnt call a few thousand extremists representative of a few billion normal people anymore than neo-nazis and their extremist ideology being representative of white people worldwide.

You do realize that most of those who trained in afghanistan in Islamist camps were training to fight their own "Infidel" governments and not the west, right? and these camps were not "al queda" camps or under the command of OBL - he simply hired a handful to carry a mission of that an associate of his planned up.

Quote:

It is common for Arab Muslims to give money to Palestinian causes.




At its essential core, the Palestinian/Israeli situation is a political one - not religious - much like the Northern Ireland/England situation of the past. Strong overtones of religion, but it boils down to property and soverneigthy rights.

Palestine does not equal Indonesia - apples and oranges.

Quote:

I got the impression that there is an overall feeling of brotherhood(barring some instances of hostility) between Muslims.




The affinity that exists is just the same as with Christians worldwide. Sure, they share the same core beliefs and language - but that doesnt mean they can all be lumped together into one giant political category all with the same agenda, does it?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Posts: 15,608
Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: GazzBut]
    #3579320 - 01/04/05 02:16 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)


hundered of thousands dead...great chance to score cheap and meaningless political/religous points.

What a crap thread.

I'm not trying to score points...I am merely making a point.

It has become the in-style thing to bash America. Nothing is wrong with bashing America in and of itself(because America does fuck up sometimes) but to do so just for the sake of attacking shows that these "American haters" like to "score points" themselves.

I am annoyed when the U.S. is criticized for everything it does(good and bad)and other countries get a pass. It makes no sense. That is the point I was trying to make.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Posts: 15,608
Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: Vvellum]
    #3579379 - 01/04/05 02:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)


I constantly hear about Muslims being "concerned" about the plight of their fellow Muslim brothers around the world.


If this is true, what does this have to do with their governments? Do you really think what their governments do are a true reflection of the people?

Sometimes I wonder. These people hate their governments and supposedly clamour for democracy, yet every single Arab/Muslim country is ruled by a dictator/monarchy/theocracy that is comfortably in power. Coincidence? Maybe these people are incapable of freedom.


There are significant amounts of Muslims who go to train for and fight jihad.


Significant? umm, I wouldnt call a few thousand extremists representative of a few billion normal people anymore than neo-nazis and their extremist ideology being representative of white people worldwide.

Muslims who actually fight jihad are pretty small in number. The people who support jihadist activities in the Arab world(using suicide bombings against Israel, fighting "infidels", etc..) is very high. I remember seeing a statistic right after Setp. 11; 50% of the Egyptian public agreed with the attacks.

Why does Al Jazeera and its blatantly anti-American propaganda do so well in the Arab world? Because the general sentiment in the Arab world towards America is one of hatred...plain and simple.


It is common for Arab Muslims to give money to Palestinian causes.


At its essential core, the Palestinian/Israeli situation is a political one - not religious - much like the Northern Ireland/England situation of the past. Strong overtones of religion, but it boils down to property and soverneigthy rights.

Palestine does not equal Indonesia - apples and oranges.

And when Arab leaders evoke Palestine as a reason to hate Israel and they express concern for their "Palestinian brothers", why do they not give more money to their Muslim brothers? Maybe it is because they are tight-fisted dictators. I would be interested in seeing what the estimated private contributions of Muslims are to the tsunami disaster.

I got the impression that there is an overall feeling of brotherhood(barring some instances of hostility) between Muslims.


Sure, they share the same core beliefs and language - but that doesnt mean they can all be lumped together into one giant political category all with the same agenda, does it?

Of course not. In fact there are some very serious and violent conflicts among the individual branches of Islam(the Sunnis and the Shia's don't like each other for example). My main point in bringing this all up was that America is immediately criticized for being cautious about how much aid to give(all of the while waiting to see what the scope of the disaster would be) and these other countries give paltry amounts and they get a complete pass. It is hypocrisy that is based on a vicious hatred of America.


Edited by RandalFlagg (01/04/05 02:37 PM)


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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3580033 - 01/04/05 05:15 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sometimes I wonder. These people hate their governments and supposedly clamour for democracy, yet every single Arab/Muslim country is ruled by a dictator/monarchy/theocracy that is comfortably in power. Coincidence? Maybe these people are incapable of freedom.




So, what about the people who were ruled by Pinochet, the Soviet Bloc, Castro, etc.? Are these people "incapable of freedom" as well? Or are they merely oppressed by thugs - as nearly all cultures/nation have been at one time because a handful of powerful men decided they knew what was best for everyone else/decided they were more important than everyone else?

Thomas Jefferson and the other founding fathers were ruled by King George. Were they "incapable of freedom"?

Quote:

Muslims who actually fight jihad are pretty small in number.




"pretty small" would be an understatement once you put things into perspective.

Quote:

The people who support jihadist activities in the Arab world(using suicide bombings against Israel, fighting "infidels", etc..) is very high. I remember seeing a statistic right after Setp. 11; 50% of the Egyptian public agreed with the attacks.




Source?

Quote:

Why does Al Jazeera and its blatantly anti-American propaganda do so well in the Arab world? Because the general sentiment in the Arab world towards America is one of hatred...plain and simple.




Something tells me you've never watched much Al Jazeera. Be honest. I've watched many, many hours of Al Jazeera with my Pakistani friend (who translates) - the coverage is not so different from the BBC, CBC, etc.

Quote:

And when Arab leaders evoke Palestine as a reason to hate Israel and they express concern for their "Palestinian brothers", why do they not give more money to their Muslim brothers?




I think these Arab leaders do tend to help out Palestinian support efforts. They support the political dignity of the Palestinian people.

Quote:

Maybe it is because they are tight-fisted dictators.




Who? If you're speaking of the Saudi Royal family, what do you expect from these fuckers?

Quote:

I would be interested in seeing what the estimated private contributions of Muslims are to the tsunami disaster.




Yes, I would as well. I would also like to see the amount relative to annual income amount (as compared to US incomes) and amounts relative to exposure to relief commericals (as compared to US exposure to tv commericals and internet sites). I would also like to see the figures once you factor the actual ability to donate by way of access to internet, credit cards, long-distance telephone in places like Iran.

Quote:

My main point in bringing this all up was that America is immediately criticized for being cautious about how much aid to give(all of the while waiting to see what the scope of the disaster would be) and these other countries give paltry amounts and they get a complete pass.




I think such criticisms arise from the wake of all the pretense of "winning the hears and minds of the Muslims" and "spreading freedom and economic prosperity to the world" - when you make such claims, there are certain expectations that come up when events such as the tsumani occur. There are also expectations of the 1st world to help out the 3rd world - who leads the 1st world again?

Quote:

It is hypocrisy that is based on a vicious hatred of America.




I questioned the initial amount that Bush proposed, and I dont hate America. I am an American.


Edited by bi0 (01/04/05 05:24 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: Vvellum]
    #3580340 - 01/04/05 06:15 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)


Maybe these people are incapable of freedom.


So, what about the people who were ruled by Pinochet, the Soviet Bloc, Castro, etc.? Are these people "incapable of freedom" as well? Or are they merely oppressed by thugs - as nearly all cultures/nation have been at one time because a handful of powerful men decided they knew what was best for everyone else/decided they were more important than everyone else?

When it comes to the Middle East and the Muslim world, we are not talking about one nation here or there that experienced a dictator. We are talking about many nations that consistently either succumb to dictatorship or theocratic rule. The lack of freedom in the Middle East is not a fluke...it is the norm. That makes me wonder if democracy will ever be possible there.


Thomas Jefferson and the other founding fathers were ruled by King George. Were they "incapable of freedom"?

No. They fought against their tyrants. Arabs don't seem to do that very much. Yes, there was the rebellion against Saddam in the mid 90's...and there are the Islamic jihadists waging war against the Saudi Royal family, but I have yet to see a significant and cohesive movement come out of that part of the world that espouses freedom and democracy. All I see is religious fanaticism and tyranny.


The people who support jihadist activities in the Arab world(using suicide bombings against Israel, fighting "infidels", etc..) is very high. I remember seeing a statistic right after Setp. 11; 50% of the Egyptian public agreed with the attacks.


Source?

Damn, I lost the source on that. It definately was the most sensational poll figure I saw.

Here are some other sources though that show world enmity towards the U.S. They are not nearly as damning as the "50% support" poll though.

http://www.zmag.org/55qa.htm
-Among Palestinians, a poll in early October found that two-thirds considered the attacks to violate Islamic law, while a quarter thought them consistent with it.

http://focusonjerusalem.com/newsroom26.html
-Hezbollah rally in Lebanon
Sept. 28....(Ha Aretz) Chanting "death to Israel" and "death to America," more than 100,000 of Lebanese marched Friday through the streets of Beirut to demonstrate support for Palestinians as the intifada enters its third year.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/09/40537.html
-15% Canadians blame US totally for 911; another 69% partly blame US

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=23068
-In Egypt, a key US ally, nearly everyone surveyed (98 percent) had a negative view of the United States, sharply up from the 76 percent who felt that way in April 2002.


Why does Al Jazeera and its blatantly anti-American propaganda do so well in the Arab world? Because the general sentiment in the Arab world towards America is one of hatred...plain and simple.


Something tells me you've never watched much Al Jazeera. Be honest. I've watched many, many hours of Al Jazeera with my Pakistani friend (who translates) - the coverage is not so different from the BBC, CBC, etc.

I've not watched it(as I don't get it), but I have read stuff from them. Some of the stuff I saw was BBC-like(dry and very matter of fact). Some of the stuff I have seen was inflammatory.


And when Arab leaders evoke Palestine as a reason to hate Israel and they express concern for their "Palestinian brothers", why do they not give more money to their Muslim brothers?


I think these Arab leaders do tend to help out Palestinian support efforts. They support the political dignity of the Palestinian people.

But not the survival of the Muslim Indonesian people?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3580579 - 01/04/05 07:20 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

The problem with Gazzbut's claim is how intrinsicly unfair it is. If the US doesn't help enough it's because we are bad, and if we help alot its because we are trying to hide how bad we are. By this logic you say arbitrary things about anybody and rationalize it.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3580754 - 01/04/05 07:55 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
The problem with Gazzbut's claim is how intrinsicly unfair it is. If the US doesn't help enough it's because we are bad, and if we help alot its because we are trying to hide how bad we are. By this logic you say arbitrary things about anybody and rationalize it.




People who can't succeed in a capitalist system long to be enslaved in a Soviet style forced labor camp. They see America as a liberator who prevents them from achieving their martyrdom. They are just narcissistic masochists who enjoy torture.


Edited by Great_Satan (01/04/05 07:58 PM)


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3580914 - 01/04/05 08:16 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

When it comes to the Middle East and the Muslim world, we are not talking about one nation here or there that experienced a dictator. We are talking about many nations that consistently either succumb to dictatorship or theocratic rule. The lack of freedom in the Middle East is not a fluke...it is the norm. That makes me wonder if democracy will ever be possible there.




These nations "consistenly succumb to dictatorship"? How is this more true than Latin Americans or the Chinese people? Or Africans?

Quote:

They fought against their tyrants. Arabs don't seem to do that very much.




Are we talking about Arabs or Muslims? You seem to confuse the two.

Quote:

Yes, there was the rebellion against Saddam in the mid 90's...and there are the Islamic jihadists waging war against the Saudi Royal family, but I have yet to see a significant and cohesive movement come out of that part of the world that espouses freedom and democracy.




How about the democracy movements in Iran? Or the recent and relatively successful elections in Afghanistan? How about the progressive liberal movements in Turkey that the government is trying to surpress?

Quote:

All I see is religious fanaticism and tyranny.




All you see is the extremist minority and the ruling parties, then.

Quote:

http://www.zmag.org/55qa.htm
-Among Palestinians, a poll in early October found that two-thirds considered the attacks to violate Islamic law, while a quarter thought them consistent with it.

http://focusonjerusalem.com/newsroom26.html
-Hezbollah rally in Lebanon
Sept. 28....(Ha Aretz) Chanting "death to Israel" and "death to America," more than 100,000 of Lebanese marched Friday through the streets of Beirut to demonstrate support for Palestinians as the intifada enters its third year.




So these cherry-picked newstories are your evidence of a "high number" of the Middle Eastern and Muslim world supporting terrorism?

Quote:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/09/40537.html
-15% Canadians blame US totally for 911; another 69% partly blame US




So?

Quote:

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=23068
-In Egypt, a key US ally, nearly everyone surveyed (98 percent) had a negative view of the United States, sharply up from the 76 percent who felt that way in April 2002.




I think if you were to poll the Shroomery on whether they had a negative view of the US government, you'd find similiar results. Here's a quote from that news article that you might find interesting: Many of those surveyed based their views mainly on US foreign policy rather than cultural or other differences. People do not like our goverment, but this doesnt not equate to "supporting jihadist activities" or whatever you're claiming.

Quote:

I've not watched it(as I don't get it), but I have read stuff from them. Some of the stuff I saw was BBC-like(dry and very matter of fact). Some of the stuff I have seen was inflammatory.




What was inflammatory?

Quote:

And when Arab leaders evoke Palestine as a reason to hate Israel and they express concern for their "Palestinian brothers", why do they not give more money to their Muslim brothers?


I think these Arab leaders do tend to help out Palestinian support efforts. They support the political dignity of the Palestinian people.

But not the survival of the Muslim Indonesian people?




...Palestinians are not Indonesians. You're comparing two separate issues. I do not see the connection.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: Vvellum]
    #3581789 - 01/04/05 11:30 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)


These nations "consistenly succumb to dictatorship"? How is this more true than Latin Americans or the Chinese people? Or Africans?

Those parts of the world are notorious for dictatorships and instability as well. I don't see Africa thriving and becoming a beacon of prosperity and democracy anytime soon either.


They fought against their tyrants. Arabs don't seem to do that very much.


Are we talking about Arabs or Muslims? You seem to confuse the two.

All Arabs live under dictatorships. Most Arabs are Muslim. Most of the rest of the world's Muslims live under shady governments as well(African nations, Pakistan, etc..).


Yes, there was the rebellion against Saddam in the mid 90's...and there are the Islamic jihadists waging war against the Saudi Royal family, but I have yet to see a significant and cohesive movement come out of that part of the world that espouses freedom and democracy.


How about the democracy movements in Iran? Or the recent and relatively successful elections in Afghanistan? How about the progressive liberal movements in Turkey that the government is trying to surpress?

The movements in Iran still have no power in comparison to the Islamic "old guard" that rules the country. The elections in Afghanistan only took place because the U.S. removed the Islamic theocracy that was in place. And Turkey has a reputation of being half-assed secular because the army wants it that way.

The second I see Muslims take part in a large, unassisted, coordinated, and effective push to get democracy, I will change my mind. Until then, I say with complete certainty that they have not succeeded in pursuing freedom.

Also, I lost the link for this article, but I remember there being very little interest expressed by the Saudi citizenry in their municipal elections. Granted, this is not full-scale democracy for the Saudis, but it was a step in the right direction. Barely anybody showed up at the polls.

All I see is religious fanaticism and tyranny.


All you see is the extremist minority and the ruling parties, then.

They are the ones that seem to make the news every night.


So these cherry-picked newstories are your evidence of a "high number" of the Middle Eastern and Muslim world supporting terrorism?

They are evidence that a lot of people in the Middle East don't like the U.S. and its policies. This can and does lend itself to a steady supply of radicals who want to destroy us.


http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/09/40537.html
-15% Canadians blame US totally for 911; another 69% partly blame US


So?

I am showing the enmity that is directed towards the U.S. on practically a daily basis. Sometimes it is deserved...sometimes it isn't.


I've not watched it(as I don't get it), but I have read stuff from them. Some of the stuff I saw was BBC-like(dry and very matter of fact). Some of the stuff I have seen was inflammatory.


What was inflammatory?

The most recent thing I can think of was a post that was put in this forum. It showed an article from Al Jazeera that was called, "America knew about the tsunamis". The article detailed how some scientist in some earthquake monitoring facility picked up the earthquake and realized that a tsunami was probable. He did not have a clue who to contact however. If that isn't inflammatory, I don't know what is.


...Palestinians are not Indonesians. You're comparing two separate issues. I do not see the connection.

I think it is hypocritical to constantly harp upon the plight of the Palestinians, complain about the "Zionist entity", enforce strict Islamic doctrine, and use the Israeli Palestinian conflict almost as a rallying point for citizens, and at the same time not give more of your ample oil wealth to help your Muslim brothers in Indonesia.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
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Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3582735 - 01/05/05 04:14 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I am annoyed when the U.S. is criticized for everything it does(good and bad)and other countries get a pass. It makes no sense. That is the point I was trying to make.




Could give a flying fuck about that bullshit!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: Nation contributions to tsunami victims [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3583019 - 01/05/05 07:01 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Where is this Muslim brotherly love and support that we hear so much about? Why isn't Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, or any other oil rich Muslim country giving more aid?




Most middle eastern countries actually don't give a flying fuck about any other country but their own, only when Isreal and the US is involved will they get involved. They hide behind their religion to help others.


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