WAN said:

shivas.wisdom said:

WAN said:

Perhaps.  But he's got some things right, though.  For example, the trans-women having no right to use a women's washroom.

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that is absolutely up for debate though, along with societal constructs of gender and sex dichotomy

if you would like to have this debate, please provide your reasoning for why allowing people to identify their own gender is a dangerous practice--please, ensure it is free of bigotry towards trans folk--and i shall provide my response for why i believe this reasoning to be flawed

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Well, thanks for being so civilized and willing to have an honest exchange with me.

I dont think it's "dangerous" to allow people to identify their own gender.  I am opposed to this whole, trans-women being able to use the women's washroom thing because some normal women would actually be very bothered by it.  I am a woman and I know I don't want to use the washroom with someone who has a penis.

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WAN said:

zappaisgod said:

WAN said:

zappaisgod said:

3.  Biological and psychological gender identity occur at different stages of fetal development.

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Some might say that when these two don't synchronize (like they do in the normal humans), it is an illness.

When someone's mental age doesn't "catch up" with his/her real chronological age, we call him/her "retarded", and we consider it to be an illness, or at the  very least something undesirable.  Same principle.

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I do not believe we consider stupidity an illness.

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1.  It's not stupidity.  More like mental retardation.

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zappaisgod said:

WAN said:

zappaisgod said:

WAN said:

Some might say that when these two don't synchronize (like they do in the normal humans), it is an illness.

When someone's mental age doesn't "catch up" with his/her real chronological age, we call him/her "retarded", and we consider it to be an illness, or at the  very least something undesirable.  Same principle.

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I do not believe we consider stupidity an illness.

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1.  It's not stupidity.  More like mental retardation.

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What is the difference between mental retardation and stupidity?

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In dust we trust said:

LOL trannies are not smart. By definition they are dumber than most of the population

Stop lying dude

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qman said:

What about people born female that identify with being male, how are they going to use a urinal without a penis?

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WAN said:

qman said:

What about people born female that identify with being male, how are they going to use a urinal without a penis?

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They can go into the stall.

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Sometimes there's only one stall and like 5 urinals, and then there's some dude taking a 30 minute shit on it. It's tough being a man sometimes.

qman said:

WAN said:

qman said:

What about people born female that identify with being male, how are they going to use a urinal without a penis?

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They can go into the stall.

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Sometimes there's only one stall and like 5 urinals, and then there's some dude taking a 30 minute shit on it. It's tough being a man sometimes.

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WAN said:

zappaisgod said:

What is the difference between mental retardation and stupidity?

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Well, I am not a medical scientist, so I can't give you an answer.  However common sense tells us that these two are different.  I am sorry that you are too mentally retarded to see it.  Or should I say "too stupid to see it".  This is the language you speak, right?

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2.  It's still something undesirable.

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Why?

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That mental retardation (or as you wish to call it, stupidity) is undesirable is self-apparent.  Next you are going to ask me why rape is bad.

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shivas.wisdom said:

WAN said:

shivas.wisdom said:

that is absolutely up for debate though, along with societal constructs of gender and sex dichotomy

if you would like to have this debate, please provide your reasoning for why allowing people to identify their own gender is a dangerous practice--please, ensure it is free of bigotry towards trans folk--and i shall provide my response for why i believe this reasoning to be flawed

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Well, thanks for being so civilized and willing to have an honest exchange with me.

I dont think it's "dangerous" to allow people to identify their own gender.  I am opposed to this whole, trans-women being able to use the women's washroom thing because some normal women would actually be very bothered by it.  I am a woman and I know I don't want to use the washroom with someone who has a penis.

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it's true that some women (and men) are uncomfortable with the idea of sharing this space, and this isn't something that should be ignored--especially when considering that survivors of abuse may have very real reasons for why they are uncomfortable sharing such an intimate space

but, while i do believe this concern should be addressed, i don't believe that continuing the status quo is the answer--instead, educating people that trans folk do not pose an inherent danger to 'normal' folk will go a long way towards changing attitudes--there are also people who are uncomfortable sharing a washroom with a gay person of the same sex, but this doesn't make a division of washrooms the proper response in this case either

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qman said:

What about people born female that identify with being male, how are they going to use a urinal without a penis?

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WAN said:

qman said:

What about people born female that identify with being male, how are they going to use a urinal without a penis?

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They can go into the stall.

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zappaisgod said:

WAN said:

zappaisgod said:

What is the difference between mental retardation and stupidity?

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Well, I am not a medical scientist, so I can't give you an answer.  However common sense tells us that these two are different.  I am sorry that you are too mentally retarded to see it.  Or should I say "too stupid to see it".  This is the language you speak, right?

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How are they different?  Keep in mind that English is my first language.

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2.  It's still something undesirable.

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Why?

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That mental retardation (or as you wish to call it, stupidity) is undesirable is self-apparent.  Next you are going to ask me why rape is bad.

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Mental retardation was not the referent of "it".  Transgenderism was.  How is it undesirable per se?

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If you don't think trannyism is undesirable, that's your prerogative.  But *I* think it's undesirable and most trannies gross me out.  I also do not want to share a bathroom with someone that has a penis.

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I know 2 transgender people on this site.  I have spoken for hours with one of them and she is way smarter than 95% of the other posters.  I have never spoken to the other one but she seems to be quite erudite and effective in making her points.  Unlike you.

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1.  I fail to see how your anecdotal experience has anything to do with trannyism generally being an undesirable thing.  If you encounter a rare, very intelligent rapist, does that suddenly make rape a good thing?

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What?  Are you equating transgenderism with a criminal act?  I ask again, why, in your mind, do you think that transgenderism makes someone undesirable? 

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See above.  You can love trannies all you want, just don't go and shake your finger at the rest of us who find them to be repulsive.

And I am not the only one who shares this sentiment.  Just ask guys.  Most of them would feel betrayed and grossed out if they found out they had sex with a tranny.

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2.  You shouldn't insult your debate opponent just because he/she disagrees with you.

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What insult?  Because if you want insults I can start.  And finish.

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Haha, good ol' zappa.  So competitive and egotistical.  Insulting others is not a good thing. Nor is it a "sport" that you seem to think it is and that you "excel" at ().  I will have no part of it.  I am on this board mostly to relieve boredom and whenever possible, to learn something.  Insulting you (or anybody for that matter) does not accomplish either.

WAN said:

shivas.wisdom said:

it's true that some women (and men) are uncomfortable with the idea of sharing this space, and this isn't something that should be ignored--especially when considering that survivors of abuse may have very real reasons for why they are uncomfortable sharing such an intimate space

but, while i do believe this concern should be addressed, i don't believe that continuing the status quo is the answer--instead, educating people that trans folk do not pose an inherent danger to 'normal' folk will go a long way towards changing attitudes--there are also people who are uncomfortable sharing a washroom with a gay person of the same sex, but this doesn't make a division of washrooms the proper response in this case either

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You might think that you are just "educating" the public about trans-people, however from our perspective, it seems like you are trying force your values and viewpoints down our throats.  And your proposal seems to carry the assumption that we are wrong, ignorant, and in need of being corrected.  Why can't we normal folks just shun the trans-gendered folks all we want, without some people getting mad at us and telling us that our natural instincts and gut feelings are "wrong"?

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shivas.wisdom said:

WAN said:

shivas.wisdom said:

it's true that some women (and men) are uncomfortable with the idea of sharing this space, and this isn't something that should be ignored--especially when considering that survivors of abuse may have very real reasons for why they are uncomfortable sharing such an intimate space

but, while i do believe this concern should be addressed, i don't believe that continuing the status quo is the answer--instead, educating people that trans folk do not pose an inherent danger to 'normal' folk will go a long way towards changing attitudes--there are also people who are uncomfortable sharing a washroom with a gay person of the same sex, but this doesn't make a division of washrooms the proper response in this case either

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You might think that you are just "educating" the public about trans-people, however from our perspective, it seems like you are trying force your values and viewpoints down our throats.  And your proposal seems to carry the assumption that we are wrong, ignorant, and in need of being corrected.  Why can't we normal folks just shun the trans-gendered folks all we want, without some people getting mad at us and telling us that our natural instincts and gut feelings are "wrong"?

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it is not a value judgement to say that trans folk do not pose an inherent danger to 'normal' folk, this is a factual statement based off of crime statistics and professional opinion--and really, should be obvious--see: 15 Experts Debunk Transgender Bathroom Myth for further reading--and so in the case of someone stating that they are uncomfortable sharing a space with transgender people due to this incorrectly applied inherent risk, it is absolutely the correct reponse to consider this viewpoint as in need of being corrected

feel free to hold your own personal prejudices, and i'll leave you alone--but the moment you attempt to enforce your prejudices at the expense of others, i will speak up and say that your opinion is both wrong and ignorant

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WAN said:

See above.  You can love trannies all you want, just don't go and shake your finger at the rest of us who find them to be repulsive.

And I am not the only one who shares this sentiment.  Just ask guys.  Most of them would feel betrayed and grossed out if they found out they had sex with a tranny.

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mycosis said:

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That is not a penis. I'm sure trannies think it is though