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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: Rdp479]
    #23004195 -

Rdp479 said:
Having a reasonable faith in your true abilities is valuable.


then its not so much faith as assessment perhaps, but I agree that is the context in which faith can be beneficial, in moderation.


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Ezuma Art:

http://ezumaart.weebly.com/

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: SpinScratch]
    #23004224 -

Faith is postulated on the basis of the Transcendental Object. The evidence of the Transcendental Object has been demonstrated repeatedly over the course of my life, via many synchronistic events, but I, as convinced subject can also deduce a Transcendental organizing principle from reason. It is doubt on the way to despair (a la Kierkegaard) that serves as an obstacle to Pure Reason. Spiritual life is valid for the subject, who is also the subjective pole in a relationship with what Jung called the "Objective Psyche."

I was a scientific materialist as an adolescent until I began to suspect there was far more to psyche than I was aware of at age 18. Doodling at age 17 showed unconscious religious contents spontaneously during a boring high school class. It was after my third acid trip at age 19, and a rather abstract yet profound experience of what I called "Infinity," since my eyes seem to focus on Infinity like the ∞ setting on a decent 35 mm camera on a drizzly, cold November sky. From the early experiences of psyche, the new concepts/beliefs which had served as a wedge into my preconceived materialism, having done their job, began to fall away. Materialism yielded to magick, which in turn yielded to mysticism, which revealed the metaphysical Ground upon which my faith is founded.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #23004256 -

Except for the band Blind Faith, I have never liked the expression. It seems to be applied to earthly affairs more than to the metaphysical Summum Bonum. You see 'blind faith' being applied to fanatics, terrorists, and those who either do not possess intellection at a significant level themselves, or those who, being inducted into a cult, make a sacrificium intellectus to become the pawns of their leaders, and that includes the Christian cults not just those of the East, of UFOs, or gurus of conspiracy theory.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: klhouse]
    #23005072 -

klhouse said:
Yes, I am frustrated, and I told the reason why.


I identified that your reason was fabricated (as you suggest 'God' to be), since no-one called atheists crazy.

It's crazy to fight a straw man though. :wink:

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (03/14/16 06:30 AM)

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23005592 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Of course it's MY opinion, whose else would it be? The conventional meaning for faith is a contemplative attitude, a receptive stance to the workings of a Transcendental Object, not oneself. Having 'faith in oneself' is a figure of speech, a colloquialism if you will. But 'faith in oneself' is a psychological matter of self-esteem with its attendant feeling of confidence. Human beings may excel in a few things from money-making to invention to sainthood, but we are always limited by many factors. I have "faith" in my capability as a therapist, but I have no "faith" in me having ever become a physicist, for example. I was differentiating the colloquial use of the word faith with a religious concept, and a fairly liberal religious concept at that (unintentionally pantheistic). Feel free to disagree on either level, I'm not seeking either validation or conversion from you.


Apparently you need a dictionary or need to learn how to check google.  The definition of faith is: "complete trust or confidence in someone or something."  Guess what - having faith in yourself is trust in someone or something, so it is more then a figure of speech. 

I can see you desperately need to be right even if it requires willful ignorance on your part, so I am sure you will just ignore the facts though....  How could someone else dare have a different view then you?  Oh no!


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www.soulremedy.org

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: travsha]
    #23006905 -

Go look up compassion, it will say pity among the other descriptors. Look up pity, it will give compassion. These are dictionary definitions which miss the nuances of the English language and are perfect for people like you who will settle for generic definitions. Compassion is NOT the same thing as pity, and when a Nyingmapa Tibetan Buddhist expresses that the Adi Buddha  (Ultimate Reality) is a union of Compassion and Wisdom, Compassion in that context is also NOT equivalent to pity. Do you use the term jealous when the term ought to be envy too? :smirk: Dictionary definitions are very pedestrian, they do not constitute "the facts," just a basic meaning minus the nuances of context. By the same token even thinking about the "need to be right," let alone using it to name call, places you squarely in the protracted adolescence in which you are clearly stuck. :lol: I'm a perpetual student, and still learning, but "ignorant?" Wrong again. :haha:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23009124 -

Sure, the common usage of the word and the dictionary definition must be wrong, because there is no possible way you could wrong lol


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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: travsha]
    #23009378 -

travsha said:
Sure, the common usage of the word and the dictionary definition must be wrong, because there is no possible way you could wrong lol


Wisdom isn't confinement to words and definition.

Those things are the actual prevention.

Meaning and intention are the carriers of revelation.

Understanding of those, gives welcome to The Way.

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (03/15/16 12:33 PM)

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #23009464 -

Sure, just like the meaning and intention I put behind my usage of the word faith.  The word faith is used by many people in many different situations and it doesnt always have to do with religion or God - often times it has to do with faith in yourself, faith in loved ones, faith in the laws of nature, faith in a community....  Faith can refer to many things and many people use it for more then just talking about God.  I think it is pretty arrogant to tell everyone else that they cant use the word the way it has been used for thousands of years because one person decides it can only be used in association with the Christian God.


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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: travsha]
    #23009488 -

Faith is personal and exists without a sound.

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #23009525 -

So...basically semantics rather than a core issue here?


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #23009533 -

Sure.  If it is personal then that means there is more then one way to have faith :wink:


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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23009539 -

Loaded Shaman said:
So...basically semantics rather than a core issue here?


I guess this is what happens when someone else decides everyone else needs to fit into their box or see things the same way as them.

Having a different opinion is threatening to some people.

But if we accept that we all see the world differently and can respect each other then we dont have to argue about semantics and can have a real conversation.


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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23009577 -

If we consolidate 'faith' we've already negotiated the meaning of it.

The label of 'elephant' doesn't encompass, justify and explain every atom of the subject.

Spiritual is ineffable. It's not defined by word, nor a series of them.  It literally emphasises the futility of having a forum like this to discuss 'spirituality' but we can but work with the tools that we have.

Personal, instances of  spiritual revelations are binned for the sole sake of having no expressable medium. 'Fish' that one wants to take back to shore, yet can't contain it in ways which is accessible and acceptable to the layman who expects a 'net'.

A Christians belief doesn't come from The Bible.  It's substantiated by their perception of it.

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (03/15/16 01:34 PM)

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23010400 -

SpinScratch said:
Consider the lack of discernible boundaries of the self may indicate that it is not really there. When you look for the self, it can't be found. Just an endless stream of thoughts. It's tempting to say "well, there must be a thinker of the thoughts". This "thinker" is a thought in itself and just because sentence makes sense linguistically doesn't mean it is a reality. Could the self just be an illusion produced by our brain? I tend to think so.


There has been a lot to digest in this thread. But one recurring statement has been that faith has the power to change reality. As if you believe in something, then it becomes fact. --- This is ridiculous. There are billions of people holding billions of different beliefs, most of which contradict each other. How could two contradicting beliefs come true? Also if I started believing that a quarter can fit through a whole the size of a dime, does it then become a fact? What if someone believes the opposite? Come on now.... Lets let the facts dictate our beliefs, not the other way around.


Atman is very real. but has no individual existence, because it is derived from Brahman. Brahman is very real. No-Self is truth but it's not an absence of selfhood, it's deeper than that. Nothingness is Absolute Truth but this is not nonexistence or "nothing", it goes deeper than that. Same principle.


Peyote Road said:
klhouse said:
I think the reason why atheists get so frustrated when talking about religion is because the religious people are the ones talking to an imaginary friend while they accuse atheists of being crazy.



I think you've got it backwards. It's atheists who accuse religious people of being crazy.

In my experience, religious people seldom call atheists crazy. They may think they are ignorant, uninformed, arrogant, conceited, irrational, going to hell, dogmatic, etc but not crazy. Anyone can see the temptation to only believe in what you can experience through the senses. Even the Bible says that Christianity is foolishness and nonsense to those without the Spirit.

So in my case for instance, while I may disagree with atheists on many things I do not think they are crazy. They simply have a beam in their eye obstructing their vision.


God itself calls atheists crazy and says "in the end you will find out who was the truly crazy". You would have to be rather crazy, rather criminally insane to say no to heaven and yes to hell, ya feel?

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: crkhd]
    #23010567 -

crkhd said:
God itself calls atheists crazy and says "in the end you will find out who was the truly crazy". You would have to be rather crazy, rather criminally insane to say no to heaven and yes to hell, ya feel?


Amen


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: crkhd]
    #23010596 -

crkhd said:
God itself calls atheists crazy and says "in the end you will find out who was the truly crazy". You would have to be rather crazy, rather criminally insane to say no to heaven and yes to hell, ya feel?


Some would say you'd have to be crazy to believe in either except as metaphorical allegories for life on Earth....  So I guess their are multiple views on the subject :wink:

Personally, I dont believe you go to either after death and it seems to me like the Catholic church just created the idea to scare people into subservience.  Jews dont even believe in heaven and hell - the idea was added later by the Catholic church. 

Besides, what kind of God punishes you for eternal torment just because you dont believe in him?  Sounds like a pretty horrible and egotistical and cruel God to me.... 

But I would say that certainly we can create heaven or hell for ourselves on Earth by our mindset and how we embrace or struggle with life.


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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: travsha]
    #23011165 -

Quote:
God itself calls atheists crazy and says "in the end you will find out who was the truly crazy".


I'm not familiar with that verse.



You would have to be rather crazy, rather criminally insane to say no to heaven and yes to hell, ya feel?


That wasn't the question. There are many atheists who aren't criminally insane. They aren't saying no to heaven and yes to hell, they simply don't believe in anything beyond the physical senses and generally don't understand the spiritual states which such terms refer to. In Christian cosmology, it's the fallen angels who are criminally insane, as they have knowledge of God but choose to rebel, not atheists.


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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: travsha]
    #23011213 -

travsha said:
crkhd said:
God itself calls atheists crazy and says "in the end you will find out who was the truly crazy". You would have to be rather crazy, rather criminally insane to say no to heaven and yes to hell, ya feel?


Some would say you'd have to be crazy to believe in either except as metaphorical allegories for life on Earth....  So I guess their are multiple views on the subject :wink:



Why on earth? Are you saying earth is the only potential planet/plane of existence one can incarnate on?

Quote:
Personally, I dont believe you go to either after death and it seems to me like the Catholic church just created the idea to scare people into subservience.  Jews dont even believe in heaven and hell - the idea was added later by the Catholic church.


Untrue, the notion of heaven and hell predates the Catholic Church and is found in multiple religions. The Jews had varying ideas about life and death, with different sects taking different sides but clearly that had concepts of heaven and hell, as their scriptures even speak of such places:

2 When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal.


Quote:
Besides, what kind of God punishes you for eternal torment just because you dont believe in him?  Sounds like a pretty horrible and egotistical and cruel God to me.... 


Dude, in the other thread you claim you studied the Bible for years and wrote a book on Gnosticism and Kabbalah. That being the case, how is it even possible you are as ignorant of Biblical theology as this post would lead one to believe?

You studied the Bible for years and yet were unaware the notion of heaven existed prior to the Catholic Church? You studied the Bible for years and wrote a book on gnosticism and yet you never moved beyond the most childish elementary understanding of Christian theology? God does not "send people to hell for not belieivng in him" hell is the state of separation from God, who in this case represents the source of all goodness". It basically means being separated from the good aspects of existence and there are many ways to get there but they all involve your personal choices are not imposed on you arbitrularly by some external deity, nor is that even what the Catholic Church teaches if you actually take the time to read.

I also find it ironic that this can be found in the reading list in the quote in your sig:

A copy of Torah, The Zohar, and Sefer Yitzerah are invaluable for studying Kabbalah.  They should be your main tools of study, though they are a little easier to understand if you have first read at least one basic book on Kabbalah

Why are you linking to a website that recommends studying the Torah if you think the Bible is so worthless?



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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

Edited by Peyote Road (03/15/16 11:09 PM)

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23011358 -

Quote:
Peyote Road said:

Why on earth? Are you saying earth is the only potential planet/plane of existence one can incarnate on?


Are you saying you have proof of people incarnating somewhere else? 

Quote:
Untrue, the notion of heaven and hell predates the Catholic Church and is found in multiple religions. The Jews had varying ideas about life and death, with different sects taking different sides but clearly that had concepts of heaven and hell, as their scriptures even speak of such places:

2 When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal.


Jewish tradition states that Jews go to Sheol in the afterlife which is supposed to be a physical place.  They dont go to different places, but the same place.  They do disagree on what happens there a little bit because Jewish focus is on this life, not the afterlife. 


Quote:
Quote:
Besides, what kind of God punishes you for eternal torment just because you dont believe in him?  Sounds like a pretty horrible and egotistical and cruel God to me.... 


Dude, in the other thread you claim you studied the Bible for years and wrote a book on Gnosticism and Kabbalah. That being the case, how is it even possible you are as ignorant of Biblical theology as this post would lead one to believe?

You studied the Bible for years and yet were unaware the notion of heaven existed prior to the Catholic Church? You studied the Bible for years and wrote a book on gnosticism and yet you never moved beyond the most childish elementary understanding of Christian theology? God does not "send people to hell for not belieivng in him" hell is the state of separation from God, who in this case represents the source of all goodness". It basically means being separated from the good aspects of existence and there are many ways to get there but they all involve your personal choices are not imposed on you arbitrularly by some external deity, nor is that even what the Catholic Church teaches if you actually take the time to read.


Common Christian belief is that you need to believe in Jesus to go to Heaven and everyone else goes to hell no matter how well they treated others and no matter whether they have even heard the name Jesus before.  Sounds pretty messed up to me. 

Missionaries have said to my face that if someone has not heard of Jesus before and so doesnt know to believe in him, but lives the most holy life making the world a better place with every act they do....  That they will burn in hell and be tortured for all eternity because they didnt believe in Jesus.  But a murderer who believes in Jesus goes to heaven.  Sounds crazy to me personally, but if youre into it then good for you. 

Quote:
I also find it ironic that this can be found in the reading list in the quote in your sig:

A copy of Torah, The Zohar, and Sefer Yitzerah are invaluable for studying Kabbalah.  They should be your main tools of study, though they are a little easier to understand if you have first read at least one basic book on Kabbalah

Why are you linking to a website that recommends studying the Torah if you think the Bible is so worthless?



If someone wants to study Kabbalah, then they should start with the Torah.  I dont see value in studying Torah personally which is why I dont anymore, but I dont care what other people do.  They can study it all they want.  It is a fun read. 

Kabbalah is somewhat helpful as a practice for trying to understand things...  But it has a giant flaw - it is heavily based on the Bible which is full of nonsense.  I dont personally study Kabbalah anymore and havent in years, but at one time I did go very deep into - I wasnt impressed with what I found in the end. 

But for other people who enjoy Kabbalah - they will probably enjoy Torah as that is what most Kabbalah is based on. 

(just because I studied something for years doesnt mean I agree with it, and just because I am not into something doesnt mean I care whether or not others are into it)


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www.soulremedy.org

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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