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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: endogenous]
    #22348481 -

There was no religion of Quetzalcoatl... It wasn't one following. He was a single god. The god that created humans. The aztecs would serve magic mushrooms during sacrifices, as it was considered a gift to the gods.

None of these cultures were monotheistic. And while there were followers who were devout to a single god, they almost always worshiped the others gods aswell.

Opiates and cocaine didn't even exist for the aztecs and other mesoamerican societies. You keep looking at their religion and culture from a western and christian view. None of the societies were monotheistic, death was not considered a bad thing, and there is no evidence of any toltecs condemning these sacrifices other than the single ruler(who was kicked out by the majority of Tolan)

Datura wasn't even used commonly compared to magic mushrooms.


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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: Achillita]
    #22348579 -

You keep making statements as if you are an expert on this topic, but you rarely give references to back up your statements and the references you give are far from convincing. In fact, there is a controversy between scholars about the very "evidence" you claim to show that the Toltecs practiced human sacrifice.

You try to pass yourself off as an expert on indigenous people -- but you sound just like the "whites" who thought of them as savages to be slaughtered. You can't conceive of an indigenous group that was against slaughter of animals and humans.

There is no question about the story of Quetzalcoatl -- that he became the ruler of the Toltecs and banished human and animal sacrifice -- that he and his followers left Tollan and settled in the Yucatan and from there his Religion spread.

No bona-fide scholar denies the existence of this story and belief. There may be questions about the details of the story but there is no real expert who states that it didn't happen, and most believe that it did.

And the fact is that the true Religion -- the worship of the true God, Entheogens -- is the same story that happens over and over -- whether it is in the Middle East and Israel, or in India, or in Persia, or in Saudi Arabia, or in meso-America.

Maria Sabina, the famous Mexican/Nahuatl curandera, called herself a "Christ-woman". And the Native American Church, which believes that Peyote is a Deity, has a mixture of Christian and traditional beliefs.


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The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

Edited by endogenous (10/08/15 05:42 AM)

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: endogenous]
    #22348606 -

She called herself that because at the point she lived, Catholicism and native religion have mixed quite a lot. The thing is, I'm not calling them savage. I am a native american, and I have aztec ancestry. I have talked to people who still follow many aztec customs. And I have talked to many people from mexico who have aztec and other mesoamerican beliefs ingrained into the culture there.

Most scholars do not believe that the god quetzalcoatl came to earth and ruled over the toltecs. There is no stories that I've ever heard of when he did that he banned human sacrifice.

The reason why Quetzalcoatl was not given human sacrifices was because he was the creator of huans. He went into the underworld, and used his own blood from wounds he inflicted on himself, to imbue the bones of the past fallen races with new life to create humans. The aztecs and the toltecs would often wound themselves and offer the blood to quetzalcoatl, just as he did for them.

When the catholic priests came to Mexico, they would reshape the ways the gods were to fit a more christian viewpoint. They turned gods and goddesses into saints, and matched many beliefs with christianity. Many saints would say that Quetzalcoatl was pretty much Jesus(or had similarities), so that more natives would convert.

Also, you seem not able to understand WHY they did this, at least not in the mindset and culture that mesoamerica had. You seem deadset on the idea that this was an evil for many people in that culture, and that there was some sort of savior god who banned it. When in reality that is not so.


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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: MysticMoteToter]
    #22349948 -

MysticMoteToter said:
i was just messin around my dude, i got what you meant haha  :havesomescience:  :hahyeahwoo:



I figured that.  :mydesk:


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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: endogenous]
    #22349963 -

endogenous said:
cube talk said:
yeahhhhhh idk where the FUK they got these ideas from, but my original intentions of this thread were saying that PERHAPS it came from psychedelics


.They got the ideas from substances other than Entheogens - like belladonna, cocaine, opiates, etc

The Religion of Quetzalcoatl worshiped Entheogens. They called Psilocybin Mushrooms, "Teonanacatl" which means "God's Flesh". The word "Peyotl" meant "Divine Messenger". The Rivea Corymbosa, a close relative of the Morning Glory, was called "Coaxihuitl" which meant "Serpent Vine", and the name of the God Queztalcoatl meant "Feathered Serpent". In other words -- Quetzalcoatl was the Serpent of the "Serpent-Vine".

Quetzalcoatl was known for banishing the practices of human and animal sacrifice. That is what came from the Son of Entheogens, Quetzalcoatl.

On the other hand, plants like datura "toloatzin", were used by the sorcerers who were into human sacrifice.

I would point out that the main "Manson" family murderer, Tex Watson, had ingested large amounts of belladonna (which is closely related to datura) and speed just before the murders.


Datura will indeed bring you horrific visions.  But much of this is mere speculation, unless there are some first hand sources to support these claims, or significant archaeological reconstruction including substance residue to go by.


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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: Achillita]
    #22351152 -

Achillita said:
She called herself that because at the point she lived, Catholicism and native religion have mixed quite a lot. The thing is, I'm not calling them savage. I am a native american, and I have aztec ancestry. I have talked to people who still follow many aztec customs. And I have talked to many people from mexico who have aztec and other mesoamerican beliefs ingrained into the culture there.


You seem to think that because you are a native american, that makes you an expert on native americans.

I remember an exchange we had in the past in which you asserted that the Native American Church didn't believe that Peyote is a Deity. Then I posted facts that showed that they do, in fact, believe that Peyote is a Deity.

That you are a Native American doesn't mean you are an expert on Native Americans.

You can't just make statements and think they're true because you're a Native American. You need to back up your statements with proof -- facts --references.


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The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: endogenous]
    #22351705 -

:facepalm: Peyote is metaphorically the flesh of god. The connection between the great spirit and earth. That doesn't make it god ffs.

It's literally documented that the catholic priests would convert natives by assimilating many of their belief systems. Same way the catholics converted the "pagan" europeans.

Have you ever seen a Day of the Dead celebration? It's based off of an aztec festival commerorating the dead. But they turned it more catholic and socially acceptable. Taking out the "pagan" ideologies.

Everything you keep saying is always based on bullshit and not realizing the view the natives had. You keep looking at it with a new age hippy ideology while not grasping at what they meant and the purposes behind it.

I've talked to people who are about as traditional as it comes to aztec religion. They pierce their flesh and use the blood as offerings to the gods. Pleasing the gods is what most mesoamerican religions are about.

I've talked to people who are in the NAC. They're not praying to the almighty peyote. They are praying to the great spirit(usually with tons of christian ideals, but not always). It's a sacrament, not actual god. Same as catholics don't believe that wine and bread are actually jesus's flesh and blood. Or rastafarians thinking cannabis is god on earth. It's a gift and/or representation of god.


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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: Achillita]
    #22352974 -

Quote:
In a chant recorded by Gordon Wasson at a vigil that took place on July 21-22 of 1956, the following are some excerpts of what the little ones (Psilocybin Mushrooms) had Maria Sabina say:

I am a woman born
I am a woman fallen into the world
I am a law woman
I am a woman of thought
I am a woman who gives life
I am a woman who reanimates
I have the heart of Christ, says
I have the heart of the Virgin...
I have the heart of the Father
I have the heart of the Old One
It's that I have the same soul, the same heart as the santo,
As the santa, says..."

Maria Sabina herself explains about lines similar to these that "the little things (the Mushrooms) are the ones who speak. If I say: "I am a woman who fell out by herself..." they say that because they spring up by themselves. Nobody plants them. 

-- http://media.smithsonianfolkways.org/liner_notes/folkways/FW08975.pdf



Maria Sabina is saying that the Psilocybin Mushrooms, (speaking through her), are saying "I have the Heart of Christ, I have the same Soul as the Saints".

You can curse all you want. The Truth is the Truth -- and no amount of your curses can change it.


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The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

Edited by endogenous (10/09/15 03:51 AM)

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: endogenous]
    #22352989 -

That's because the natives were for the most part converted, and parts of the orignal culture were integrated into christianity. Christianity was not the original religion of that area.

But there are still people who are fairly traditional in mexico who follow the aztec gods. It is definately not commonplace though. What is common is the blend of catholicism and aztec undertones.


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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: Achillita]
    #22353043 -

It's because that's what the MUSHROOMS SAID. They were Talking through Maria Sabina. They were verifying that They are the Heart of Christ -- They are the Soul of the Saints.

They are the True Flesh of God.

" You may say all these words to them: they will not listen to you; you may call them: they will not answer. 28 So tell them this, 'Here is the nation that will not listen to the voice of Yahweh its God nor take correction. Sincerity is no more, it has vanished from their mouths."
-- Jeremiah, 7, 27


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The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: endogenous]
    #22353097 -

from One Nation Under God
by Huston Smith

Veneration of the small spineless cactus called peyote probably began immediately after the first hunter-gatherers discovered its remarkable effects. The Native American deification of the plant is estimated to be about 10,000 years old. Peyote cactus buttons uncovered in Shumla Cave in southern Texas have been radiocarbon dated to 5,000 B.C. The Huichol Indians of northwestern Mexico still use peyote sacramentally. Their peyote pilgrimage may have been in place by 200 A.D. Scholars consider it the oldest sacramental use of peyote in North America.

Huichols revere Peyote as the heart, soul, and memory of their Creator, Deer-Person. Huichol healers and singers achieve such union with their Creator, as incarnated in Peyote, that Peyote speaks through them, as here:

If you come to know me intimately, you shall be like me and feel like I do. Although you may not see me, I shall always be your elder brother. I am called the flower of Deer-Person. Have no fear, for I shall always be the flower of God.(1)

Deer-Person, the supreme teacher of the Huichol, teaches songs, reveals himself to shamanic healers through his Peyote spirit, and punishes those who violate his moral precepts. "It is because of the wisdom of Deer-Person," we are told, "that shamans exist. That is how we Huichols are able to diagnose diseases with our visionary ability and soul, which are the eyes of Deer-Person. That is our method of curing."(2)


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The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

Edited by endogenous (10/09/15 05:01 AM)

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: Achillita]
    #22354629 -

Achillita said:
That's because the natives were for the most part converted, and parts of the orignal culture were integrated into christianity. Christianity was not the original religion of that area.

But there are still people who are fairly traditional in mexico who follow the aztec gods. It is definately not commonplace though. What is common is the blend of catholicism and aztec undertones.


Yeah, this.  It's impossible to reconcile it otherwise.

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: endogenous]
    #22354631 -

endogenous said:
It's because that's what the MUSHROOMS SAID. They were Talking through Maria Sabina. They were verifying that They are the Heart of Christ -- They are the Soul of the Saints.

They are the True Flesh of God.

" You may say all these words to them: they will not listen to you; you may call them: they will not answer. 28 So tell them this, 'Here is the nation that will not listen to the voice of Yahweh its God nor take correction. Sincerity is no more, it has vanished from their mouths."
-- Jeremiah, 7, 27


:bsflag:

See, here's where you just flat out leave the rational realm behind.  Among other things, the mushroom spirits just love to yank your chain.  And you can't have this both ways, with you being correct in both. "Revelation" is not fact, and not capable of being used to argue for the veracity of drug induced visionary experiences wholesale.  Anybody with significant experience with psychedelics should already have learned to recognize this. :shrug:


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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: endogenous]
    #22355009 -

Thank you primal soup :hug:

endogenous said:
from One Nation Under God
by Huston Smith

Veneration of the small spineless cactus called peyote probably began immediately after the first hunter-gatherers discovered its remarkable effects. The Native American deification of the plant is estimated to be about 10,000 years old. Peyote cactus buttons uncovered in Shumla Cave in southern Texas have been radiocarbon dated to 5,000 B.C. The Huichol Indians of northwestern Mexico still use peyote sacramentally. Their peyote pilgrimage may have been in place by 200 A.D. Scholars consider it the oldest sacramental use of peyote in North America.

Huichols revere Peyote as the heart, soul, and memory of their Creator, Deer-Person. Huichol healers and singers achieve such union with their Creator, as incarnated in Peyote, that Peyote speaks through them, as here:

If you come to know me intimately, you shall be like me and feel like I do. Although you may not see me, I shall always be your elder brother. I am called the flower of Deer-Person. Have no fear, for I shall always be the flower of God.(1)

Deer-Person, the supreme teacher of the Huichol, teaches songs, reveals himself to shamanic healers through his Peyote spirit, and punishes those who violate his moral precepts. "It is because of the wisdom of Deer-Person," we are told, "that shamans exist. That is how we Huichols are able to diagnose diseases with our visionary ability and soul, which are the eyes of Deer-Person. That is our method of curing."(2)


Also, we were talking about the NAC, not the huichol. The Huichol people are not even near the US. I'm gonna be honest, I don't know much about them. But it still doesn't sound like peyote is god. I skimmed through a documentary about the huichol pilgrimage that happened recently, and they said that the gods(plural) speak to them when they take peyote. Everything is sacred to the huichol, as they are deeply animistic.

The Huichol have nothing to do with the NAC and do not see peyote as god. They do refer to it as the flesh of god, but it isn't god. Same way that christianity refers to wine as the blood of jesus. Is wine actually jesus's blood?


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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: Achillita]
    #22355171 -

SFAIK the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation holds that the bread and wine become literally the actual body and blood of Christ in the sacrament of the Eucharist, not merely symbolically.  What would be the point otherwise?  It's supposed to be miraculous...

What I can say from experience is that the mushrooms connect me WITH some sort of source of being.  They are not themselves the source of this source, or some sort of deity.  They are conduits, IME, to the hyperdimensional reality that underpins our own.  They invoke the holy and thus render it accessible and attainable - but only with the synergistic relationship that occurs between the human and the mushroom when one consumes the other.  In this sense we sacrifice their body to our purposes.  It's not a far stretch - and never has been if history is any guide - to extend the "sacrifice" to other forms, particularly when the preferred sacrament isn't available. 

However, this source of being that one connects with is generally incapable of being reliably interpreted back here in our ordinary reality.  Hence people get all sorts of different "revelations" and "truths" from it, all stamped with an incontrovertible evidentiary quality (aka qualia) of immense relevance and accuracy - an emotional trap if you don't recognize the basic inapplicability of the one realm to the other.  Those woods are thick.

:2cents:



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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

Edited by PrimalSoup (10/09/15 06:17 PM)

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #22355472 -

PrimalSoup said:
endogenous said:
It's because that's what the MUSHROOMS SAID. They were Talking through Maria Sabina. They were verifying that They are the Heart of Christ -- They are the Soul of the Saints.

They are the True Flesh of God.

" You may say all these words to them: they will not listen to you; you may call them: they will not answer. 28 So tell them this, 'Here is the nation that will not listen to the voice of Yahweh its God nor take correction. Sincerity is no more, it has vanished from their mouths."
-- Jeremiah, 7, 27


See, here's where you just flat out leave the rational realm behind.  Among other things, the mushroom spirits just love to yank your chain.


So I guess Maria Sabina and the Native American Church have "left the rational realm behind" and you are the All-Wise One.  :bow2:

"Quanah Parker is credited as the founder of the Native American Church Movement, which started in the 1890s. Parker adopted the Peyote religion after reportedly seeing a vision of Jesus Christ while suffering from a near fatal wound following a battle with Federal Troops.....Parker was given Peyote by a Ute medicine man to cure the infections of his wounds. During the Peyote experience, Parker claimed he heard the voice of Jesus Christ who then appeared to him, and told him in order to atone for his many killings and misdeeds, he must forsake a life of violence and take the Peyote religion to the Indian Peoples. Parker's words and teachings comprise the core of the Native American Church doctrine and the "Peyote Road".....Healers and singers achieve a union with their Creator, as incarnated in Peyote, Peyote speaks through them."
-- Searching for Spiritual Unity...Can There Be Common Ground?
By Robyn E. Lebron

"To the kind Thou art kind,
and true to the true.
To the pure Thou art pure,
and treacherous to the treacherous."
-- Psalm 18, 25


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The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

Edited by endogenous (10/09/15 07:29 PM)

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: endogenous]
    #22355787 -

Quoting people that are just as full of shit as you are does not make for a convincing argument. Do you have any actual evidence to support your claims?

Also, there are so many varying interpretations of any religious dogma that claiming any one of them to be objective and undisputed is ridiculous.


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Think, it ain't illegal yet. - George Clinton

Substances I have allegedly taken: Cannabis (bud, edibles, and concentrates), Mushrooms (P. Cubensis), LSD, ETH-LAD, ALD-52, DMT, MDMA, Mescaline (Peruvian Torch), 25I-NBOMe, Salvia Divinorum (10x), Syrian Rue, Amanita Muscaria (10x), Cocaine, Nightshade (Henbane).

All posts are hypothetical or entirely fictional.

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #22357291 -

"Parker's most famous teaching regarding the spirituality of the Native American Church:

    "The White Man goes into his church house and talks about Jesus, but the Indian goes into his tipi and talks to Jesus."" -- Hagan, William T. Quanah Parker, Comanche Chief. University of Oklahoma (1995), ISBN 0-80-612772-4, pg. 57

"As soon as Christian missionaries became aware of the sacramental use of peyote on their reservations they began to agitate against it. First in Oklahoma and later elsewhere, Indian agents joined the missionaries in lobbying to outlaw the substance. The Indians bravely defended their religious freedom in their respective states and in Congress. One of the most eloquent of these defenders was Albert Hensley, a Winnebago educated at the Carlisle Indian School. By 1908, Hensley and the Winnebago had come to regard Peyote as both a Holy Medicine and a Christian sacrament. "To us it is a portion of the body of Christ," Hensley said, "even as the communion bread is believed to be a portion of Christ's body by other Christian denominations."
 -- Omer C. Stewart, Peyote Religion: A History (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1987), 157.


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The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: endogenous]
    #22357383 -

Quote:
SFAIK the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation holds that the bread and wine become literally the actual body and blood of Christ in the sacrament of the Eucharist, not merely symbolically.  What would be the point otherwise?  It's supposed to be miraculous...


You might have misunderstood me. It's a sacred thing, a sacrament. But it is not christ. They're worshiping christ, not the wine and bread.

Same with peyote. They aren't worshiping the peyote. They're using it in conjuction to worship what they worship. Many NACs are christian based, but there are quite a few one that are more native based.

Peyote is a symbol and considered the flesh of god, as it connects the members to a higher power. But they are not worshiping the peyote. The peyote itself is not god.


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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: endogenous]
    #22357441 -

This is from the website of the Oklevueha Native American Church. They are a combination of Lakota Sioux and Seminole. The title that the Church gave to this page is "Peyote - The Flesh of God". Thus, they are obviously in agreement with the Huichol and Tarahumara, that Peyote is the physical manifestation of God.

"The Huichole tribe now consists of about 25,000 people who live in the Sierra Madre Occidental mountain region of northwestern Mexico.  Most of their sacred practices revolve around the use of peyote, which they hold as the physical manifestation of God.
...The Tarahumara historically lived north of the Huichole in the Sierra Madre Occidental, but now many of the 50,000 members of the tribe have migrated to the hills and plains southwest of the city of Chihuahua....  While the outward ritual of their peyote use is different from the Huichole, they share the belief that peyote is the flesh of God."


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The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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