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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #22336314 -

Very true.

Maybe it was the ultimate "honor" to the afterlife. Who knows.

All i know is when we all die, we will *hopefully* find the answers to one of the biggest riddles of all "Is there an Afterlife?".

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #22336554 -

Well, they believed if you were sacrificed, you would be taken to the realm of the gods. Same if you died in battle, or during childbirth. You would not have to go through the 13 levels of the underworld to reach the afterlife.

IF you died any other ways other than the 3 I said, you would have to traverse the 13 levels of the underworld. Each level being a challenge that takes bravery, is incredibly painful, and each one gets progressively more difficult. Only through the sacrifice during life could you just bypass these trials. Whether that sacrifice be your own life to the gods, through death on the battle field, or sacrifice for another life(childbirth).

I'm just trying to enlighten you guys on the mentality of these cultures. Death is a part of life. It was ingrained into every part of the mesoamerican culture. Festivals of the dead were common(and still are practiced in mexico). Skulls were a common motif. Death wasn't a feared thing like it is in western culture.


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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: Achillita]
    #22336567 -

13 painful challenges... Total manipulation scheme to find willing subjects to get sacrificed :rolleyes:

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: GoldenEye]
    #22336602 -

Also, many sacrifices had willing people. They were treated highly for days to a week before sacrifice. You never treated the sacrifices badly, because they were a gift from man to the gods.

One celebration had a willing man trated like a god for a week and then killed. He was given women, food, and dressed in gold. :shrug: Worse ways to go :lol:


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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: Achillita]
    #22336625 -

That's even more blatant :lol:

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: GoldenEye]
    #22336653 -

:shrug: Whatever works I guess :lol:

Sacrifices make sense in mesoamerican religion, because the gods sacrificed themselves to keep the world alive and have the sun rise. They want sacrifices as a sort of tribute to them giving up their physical forms for life to exist.

The only god that doesn't want life is Quetzalcoatl, and that's because he made humans.

The religion is still prevelant in many areas of mexico. Although a lot of times it is melded with Catholicism. But human sacrifice doesn't happen anymore. Blood letting is common with more traditional practitioners though.

People akin it to having the gods blessing by giving some of your own lifeforce.


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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: Achillita]
    #22339439 -

So far, I haven't seen anything that says why they think the "sacrifice" (if it was actually one), dated from the Toltec time. I would think they would have done a carbon 14 dating. I'm not an expert in carbon 14 dating technology, but from what I've seen, it wouldn't be surprising to see an error variability of 200-300 years. The end of the Toltec civilization was around 1200 A.D. The Aztecs gained power at around 1400.

Combined with the fact that the Aztecs buried their sacrifices in Toltec burial sites, I haven't seen any convincing evidence that these remains weren't from the Aztecs.

Also, from the writings of Sahagan, it certainly doesn't appear that the Toltecs worshiped any other god than Quezalcoatl. And Sahagan was certainly in the greatest position to report on this since he was only about 300 years away from the last of the Toltecs.

I guess it depends on how you would define a "Toltec". According to the story of "Quetzalcoatl":

"A number of sources enumerate the various rulers of Tollan, though there is considerable variation with respect to names of specific rulers and their order of succession. One of the best-known sagas concerns the legendary Ce Acatl Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl, a  Toltec priest-king so closely associated with the ancient Mesoamerican deity of the same name that the two are often considered one and the same. Despite many inconsistencies in the Quetzalcoatl saga, a number of scholars, most notably Nicholson (1957), have provided detailed analyses and interpretation of its contents, chiefly because of its relevance not only to the Toltecs but to Mesoamerican religion in general.

According to the saga, Ce Acatl Topiltzin, whose name derives from his birth in the year ce acatl (one reed) was  the son of Mixcoatl or some other Toltec ruler. He became ruler of Tollan (indeed, he may have founded Tollan) and was regarded as a benevolent, wise, and learned man (though mention is also made of his prowess as a warrior). Sahagun notes above that Topiltzin was a religious innovator credited with instituting the worship of Quetzalcoatl at Tollan at the expense of Tezcatlipoca, a tribal deity whose worship  required  human sacrifice. Topiltzin's stand against human sacrifice apparently touched off internal strife between his followers and those of  Tezcatlipoca, recalling the duality or multiethnic character of Tollan. This led to a series of allegorical confrontations between Quetzalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca in which the latter used deception and sorcery to triumph over Quetzalcoatl and his followers, who ultimately left Tollan in disgrace, as alluded to in Sahagun's final paragraphs presented above. Quetzalcoatl and his followers are said to have journeyed to Yucatan, where he ultimately sacrificed himself, to be resurrected as the deity Quetzalcoatl in the  guise of the morning star. His followers established themselves among the Maya and instituted the worship of Quetzalcoatl. These events are corroborated by Maya ethnohistorical accounts and the presence of Toltec iconographic and architectural elements at Chichen Itza and other Maya sites." -- https://books.google.com/books?id=dhtlNuJHuKAC&pg=PR7&lpg=PR7&dq=dan+m.+healan&source=bl&ots=n6ewn9xgYU&sig=VRp_nR6F-WKrgxt8owr2B5v2ygE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CD8Q6AEwCGoVChMIg4CY0YmryAIVAT0-Ch237QGE#v=onepage&q=dan%20m.%20healan&f=false

Edited by endogenous (10/06/15 04:07 AM)

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: endogenous]
    #22339464 -

Except that human sacrifices are literally apart of the toltec religion. And every predecessor of the Toltecs(Chichimecs, Aztecs, and Mayans) all did human sacrifice. Literally their god of war wanted the sacrifices of Humans...

There is plenty of proof to show that toltecs did sacrifices. They had an emperor who outlawed human sacrifice, but he was kicked out of the city because the followers of the god who wanted sacrifices kicked him out for restricting them.


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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: Achillita]
    #22339529 -

I don't think the evidence is clear at all -- which should be obvious.

"Quetzalcoatl" may have founded Tollan. The worshipers of Quetzalcoatl left Tollan at some point. How long they were there and when they left isn't clear.

What is clear is that Sahagan stated that the Toltecs worshiped Quetzalcoatl, and no other God -- and that human sacrifice was against the religion of Quezalcoatl.

That would seem to mean that if the people at Tollan before Quetzalcoatl, or after him, practiced human sacrifice, then they weren't Toltecs.


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The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: endogenous]
    #22340298 -

They didn't just worship Quetzalcoatl though. There is so much evidence and proof of them having 2 gods (most lielly more). One being Quetzalcoatl, the gpd pf peace and humanity. And the other being Tezcatlipoca, the gpd of war and violence.

He demanded sacrifice and war. The toltecs went to war, they sacrificed. He wasn't the devil, nearly all toltecs worshipped him alongside Quetzalcoatl. Because it's the duality.

Simple searching on toltec religion and you'll find evidence of both gods. They were definitely not monotheistic.


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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: Achillita]
    #22341033 -

It seems similar to the "Christians". Christ said, "If someone strikes you on the cheek, turn the other cheek". So how can people who are into war and the death penalty say that they're Christians? Christ obviously would not call them that.

I think that the original Toltecs were a religion. People wanted to be thought of as being descended from the Toltecs, so people who didn't follow the original religious doctrines ended up claiming to be one.

"It appears, for example, that descent from the Toltec dynasties of Tollan was a sine qua non for legitimacy among the ruling families of the city states of Anahuac.  Accounts of the early years of the Aztecs in Anahuac mention their attempts to acquire the right to claim Toltec descent. In other respects, however, Aztec adoration of the Toltecs seems unique in  its intensity, often bordering on mysticism. Aztec offerings were frequently buried in the ruins of Tollan and as noted below, Toltec artifacts were routinely looted from these ruins." -- https://books.google.com/books?id=dhtlNuJHuKAC&pg=PR7&lpg=PR7&dq=dan+m.+healan&source=bl&ots=n6ewn9xgYU&sig=VRp_nR6F-WKrgxt8owr2B5v2ygE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CD8Q6AEwCGoVChMIg4CY0YmryAIVAT0-Ch237QGE#v=onepage&q=dan%20m.%20healan&f=false


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The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: endogenous]
    #22341060 -

The toltecs had a religion. The religion influenced Aztecs and other societies in the area greatly. The aztecs adopted a lot of the toltec culture, and claimed to be the successors of them.

But Toltecs weren't monotheistic, and they weren't non violent.


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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: Achillita]
    #22341923 -

yeahhhhhh idk where the FUK they got these ideas from, but my original intentions of this thread were saying that PERHAPS it came from psychedelics

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: cube talk]
    #22343618 -

I suspect they got the ideas from the same place as any other religion gets ideas - shit that appears to work.

Since when I dose heavy I very often get vivid Aztec imagery on the walls - complex as anything I've ever seen from any of the sites - I think they were essentially mainlining this stuff and took it wherever it led as a culture.  I don't get the urge to sacrifice people though - well, not lately. :shrug:


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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #22343771 -

It's starting to look to me like the Toltecs were somewhat like the Jews. The worship of a "Feathered Serpent" existed since at least 400 B.C. "Quetzalcoatl" is the Nahua word for "Feathered Serpent".

It is thought that the reincarnation of Quetzalcoatl occurred in the 1100's A.D. He came from the Toltecs and ruled them. He banished practices like human and animal sacrifice.

Or it is similar to when King David ruled the Hebrews. The Hebrew "Messiah" was a combination of Prophet and King.


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The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: cube talk]
    #22345861 -

cube talk said:
yeahhhhhh idk where the FUK they got these ideas from, but my original intentions of this thread were saying that PERHAPS it came from psychedelics


Perhaps, or maybe there were actually gods such as the god of corn who sacrificed himself in order for corn to grow....idk sacrifice seems idiotic now because very few of us believe in things like this. Modern society is more driven by proof/science. However, if we still believed that mystic processes rule the world that we can't understand, we might still be doing weird shit like this. Just make science your bitch and you'll never have to worry about sacrificing your best friend on a heroic dose. :offthehook:


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:zaphod:   :zaphod: 


Half Homo Hardly Sapient
Overview Effect
Fuck War, Feed Birds.

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #22345877 -

PrimalSoup said:
I think they were essentially mainlining this stuff and took it wherever it led as a culture.  I don't get the urge to sacrifice people though - well, not lately. :shrug:


Pretty sure they were not shooting up mushrooms intravenously (the definition of mainlining.)


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:zaphod:   :zaphod: 


Half Homo Hardly Sapient
Overview Effect
Fuck War, Feed Birds.

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: MysticMoteToter]
    #22346345 -

It's an f*ing euphemism, dude.  :raisemyglass:


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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #22347624 -

i was just messin around my dude, i got what you meant haha  :havesomescience:  :hahyeahwoo:


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:zaphod:   :zaphod: 


Half Homo Hardly Sapient
Overview Effect
Fuck War, Feed Birds.

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Re: What's your theory on this [Re: cube talk]
    #22348419 -

cube talk said:
yeahhhhhh idk where the FUK they got these ideas from, but my original intentions of this thread were saying that PERHAPS it came from psychedelics


They got the ideas from substances other than Entheogens - like belladonna, cocaine, opiates, etc.

The Religion of Quetzalcoatl worshiped Entheogens. They called Psilocybin Mushrooms, "Teonanacatl" which means "God's Flesh". The word "Peyotl" meant "Divine Messenger". The Rivea Corymbosa, a close relative of the Morning Glory, was called "Coaxihuitl" which meant "Serpent Vine", and the name of the God Queztalcoatl meant "Feathered Serpent". In other words -- Quetzalcoatl was the Serpent of the "Serpent-Vine".

Quetzalcoatl was known for banishing the practices of human and animal sacrifice. That is what came from the Son of Entheogens, Quetzalcoatl.

On the other hand, plants like datura "toloatzin", were used by the sorcerers who were into human sacrifice.

I would point out that the main "Manson" family murderer, Tex Watson, had ingested large amounts of belladonna (which is closely related to datura) and speed just before the murders.


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The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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