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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: WAN]
    #22092132 -

WAN said:
I won't stoop to your level by sitting here trading insults back and forth with you.  I will say though, that you are a liability onto your own cause.  Look at you, trying hard to score verbal victory, and making ideological opponents out of  people you debate with.  You fail to realize that the most important thing for someone with a strong political opinion/concern like you is to win people over to his side, and capturing their hearts and minds.


Wahhhh. Better than sounding like a butthurt whiner.  Besides, nothing said in these forums will ever change anything... ever. Get over yourself. You come across as a micro-aggression crazed college kid. Grow a pair.


Quote:
Anyway, onto your post.  I don't think it is a very good idea to rely solely on friends, family, and private charities, mostly for the reason that these can sometimes fail (as stonehenge has pointed out).  What if there is a bum who has no friends, no family members, and there is no charity around where he is, (maybe there is, but they are spread out too thin, for some reason).  And this bum gets sick.  Should we just watch him die?  No.  I believe in this case, the government should step in and, *gasps* use taxpayers money to save this individual.  Is this income redistribution?  Yes, it is.  However it is very well spent, and those of us who have a conscience and care about our fellow men would not have wanted it any other way.  So my conclusion?  Some level of income redistribution is required in an ethical society. Income redistribution is not entirely bad.


So you've gone from it's not income redistribution, to income redistribution is OK when you think it is. Good for you.

It's still force, it's still morally wrong. Your conclusion sucks.


Quote:
Another reason I don't like this idea of yours is that some (selfish!) people would get to duck out of taking care of the weakest, most vulnerable members of our society.  Someone got sick?  Someone is starving?  Someone got injured at work?  No worries.  Let their friends/families care for them.  As for me?  Nah I aint spending one dime to help some stranger that I don't know.  Does this scenario sound desirable to you?


Yes, it sounds desirable, moral and just. Right now roughly 50% of Americans duck out on their social "responsibilities". Now that's immoral. Americans are generous people. The poor would do fine.


Quote:
I believe that stonehenge covered it really well.  There is no avoiding some form of income redistribution, in a society populated by moral beings such as ours.  And taxes get collected and spent on stuff that some people genuinely have an issue with all the time, but that's the price we pay for living in societies.


It's easy to avoid. Just don't do it. There are legitimate functions of government. Income redistribution is not among them. Calling yourself a moral being is quite humorous from one willing to force others to do his bidding.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22092136 -

Stonehenge said:
>FICA is ss.

Its also medicare, you are revealing your ignorance.


Yes, I know that.  And Medicaid


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22092159 -

zappaisgod said:
Stonehenge said:
>The government should be out of the mail business.  There are private companies that do it better.

Name one.


Fedex.  UPS.  There are others.


Do you even have a clue about what you are ranting about? It does not sound that way. FedEx is cheap but is a joke, ups is better than fedex but both cost much much more than the post office. USPS is better than fedex and at least as good as ups. A first class letter is 49 cents, can you tell us how much it will cost to send by one of your preferred companies? Hint, its more than 10x as much.


Quote:
>I didn't fuck up.

Lucky you.


Quote:
There was no luck involved


Of course there was luck, who are you fooling?

Quote:
>And I wasn't born into privilege.

Liar. You already admitted being put through college and who knows what else. Not everyone is born into a good situation. Not everyone escapes injury, illness or other hardship. Steven jobs did very well but got struck down, many others too.


Quote:
You have a strange idea of privilege.  I went to a state school.  I had a scholarship as well.  Straight middle class isn't privilege and I have no intention of letting you get away with inventing new definitions for words.  Everybody dies.  You make no sense, as usual.  How much was the taxpayer on the hook for Steve Jobs" crazy ass treatments?  Hint.  It was zero.  There is absolutely nothing "lucky" about living to be 58.  NOT living to my age is unlucky.  Do you understand the difference?


It is you who have a strange idea of privilege. You wrote that and have no inkling of the irony in it. Many people would love to be put through a state school but do not have that luxury. Plus I'm sure there are many other examples of your family and connections helping you out though you won't admit it I'm sure. A child of privilege who sneers at the common herd and doesn't care if they die.

>Yes, I know that.  And Medicaid

But you corrected me when I said "ss and fica". You told me fica was ss, but its a lot more than that as you finally admit.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22092213 -

Stonehenge said:
zappaisgod said:
Stonehenge said:
>The government should be out of the mail business.  There are private companies that do it better.

Name one.


Fedex.  UPS.  There are others.


Do you even have a clue about what you are ranting about? It does not sound that way. FedEx is cheap but is a joke, ups is better than fedex but both cost much much more than the post office. USPS is better than fedex and at least as good as ups. A first class letter is 49 cents, can you tell us how much it will cost to send by one of your preferred companies? Hint, its more than 10x as much.


They don't do what the USPS does because the USPS is and has been subsidized by the taxpayer forever.  Fedex and UPS could easily subsume the USPS business within their infrastructure.
Quote:
Quote:
>I didn't fuck up.

Lucky you.


Quote:
There was no luck involved


Of course there was luck, who are you fooling?

oh so you're one of those commie idiots who think like Elizabeth Warren and Barack Obama that "you didn;t build that."
Quote:
Quote:
>And I wasn't born into privilege.

Liar. You already admitted being put through college and who knows what else. Not everyone is born into a good situation. Not everyone escapes injury, illness or other hardship. Steven jobs did very well but got struck down, many others too.


Quote:
You have a strange idea of privilege.  I went to a state school.  I had a scholarship as well.  Straight middle class isn't privilege and I have no intention of letting you get away with inventing new definitions for words.  Everybody dies.  You make no sense, as usual.  How much was the taxpayer on the hook for Steve Jobs" crazy ass treatments?  Hint.  It was zero.  There is absolutely nothing "lucky" about living to be 58.  NOT living to my age is unlucky.  Do you understand the difference?


It is you who have a strange idea of privilege. You wrote that and have no inkling of the irony in it. Many people would love to be put through a state school but do not have that luxury. Plus I'm sure there are many other examples of your family and connections helping you out though you won't admit it I'm sure. A child of privilege who sneers at the common herd and doesn't care if they die.


I got nothing from any family connections.  And my college was useless to my career.  Nice try.  When are you moving out of mom's basement?
Quote:
>Yes, I know that.  And Medicaid

But you corrected me when I said "ss and fica". You told me fica was ss, but its a lot more than that as you finally admit.


You didn't seem to know.  Why did you separate them?


--------------------

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22092258 -

luvdemshrooms said:
WAN said:
I won't stoop to your level by sitting here trading insults back and forth with you.  I will say though, that you are a liability onto your own cause.  Look at you, trying hard to score verbal victory, and making ideological opponents out of  people you debate with.  You fail to realize that the most important thing for someone with a strong political opinion/concern like you is to win people over to his side, and capturing their hearts and minds.


Wahhhh. Better than sounding like a butthurt whiner.  Besides, nothing said in these forums will ever change anything... ever. Get over yourself. You come across as a micro-aggression crazed college kid. Grow a pair.


Maybe nothing said by *YOU* in these forums will ever change anything. Possibly due to you being a rude, aggressive person that keeps insulting others.  I, on the other hand, might change things just by speaking my piece on these boards.  Do you know why there is internet police and why the feds monitor online boards?  It's because some posters are able to influence others and change people's opinions.  You aren't one of them, though.


Also, I sense that you are trying very hard to insult me.  Kind of funny to watch.
Quote:
Quote:
Anyway, onto your post.  I don't think it is a very good idea to rely solely on friends, family, and private charities, mostly for the reason that these can sometimes fail (as stonehenge has pointed out).  What if there is a bum who has no friends, no family members, and there is no charity around where he is, (maybe there is, but they are spread out too thin, for some reason).  And this bum gets sick.  Should we just watch him die?  No.  I believe in this case, the government should step in and, *gasps* use taxpayers money to save this individual.  Is this income redistribution?  Yes, it is.  However it is very well spent, and those of us who have a conscience and care about our fellow men would not have wanted it any other way.  So my conclusion?  Some level of income redistribution is required in an ethical society. Income redistribution is not entirely bad.


So you've gone from it's not income redistribution, to income redistribution is OK when you think it is. Good for you.


I never said it wasn't income redistribution in the beginning.  And yes, income redistribution can be good on some scale.  We (except you, who thinks there is nothing he can do to change people's opinions) just need to hash out the details about how much this should be.

Quote:
It's still force, it's still morally wrong. Your conclusion sucks.


By your reasoning, ALL taxes are collected by government via some form of implicit (or maybe explicit?) government force.  Therefore, all taxes are bad?


Quote:
Quote:
I believe that stonehenge covered it really well.  There is no avoiding some form of income redistribution, in a society populated by moral beings such as ours.  And taxes get collected and spent on stuff that some people genuinely have an issue with all the time, but that's the price we pay for living in societies.


It's easy to avoid. Just don't do it. There are legitimate functions of government. Income redistribution is not among them. Calling yourself a moral being is quite humorous from one willing to force others to do his bidding.


I do think I am quite the moral being for not just letting people die before my eyes.  And so far your "solution" to my hypothetical case of a bum having no social support has been exactly one big na-da.  Tell me, what would you do with a bum getting ill, who has no family, no friends and who does not find any private charity?

You need to grow up and realize that the taxes we pay will sometimes go towards things that we do not like. 

Also, I find it kind of strange that you are so much against "income distribution" for the poor, the sick, and the ones struck down by some random tragedies, but you don't seem to have an issue with our taxes going towards the military.  You do know that a lot of our taxes are being siphoned off by these rich national defense companies and contractors, right?  How come you are not against this form of income redistribution?  I know that some of them have indeed produced goods or services for us, but even more of them are just straight up profiting from it.  sounds like "income redistribution" in some way to me.

Edited by WAN (08/14/15 06:33 PM)

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: WAN]
    #22092286 -

>They don't do what the USPS does because the USPS is and has been subsidized by the taxpayer forever.  Fedex and UPS could easily subsume the USPS business within their infrastructure.

They can't do it is what you are trying to say in your fumbling way. You failed to answer how much it costs to send a letter or small package by your fav shippers. The post office would be making a profit if not for your hero obumble forcing them to pay some $6B a year to fully finance the retirement of people who haven't been born yet. You didn't know that did you?

A child of privilege who sneers at the common man and doesn't care if he dies. One day you could be destitute.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22092300 -

Stonehenge said:
>They don't do what the USPS does because the USPS is and has been subsidized by the taxpayer forever.  Fedex and UPS could easily subsume the USPS business within their infrastructure.

They can't do it is what you are trying to say in your fumbling way. You failed to answer how much it costs to send a letter or small package by your fav shippers. The post office would be making a profit if not for your hero obumble forcing them to pay some $6B a year to fully finance the retirement of people who haven't been born yet. You didn't know that did you?

A child of privilege who sneers at the common man and doesn't care if he dies. One day you could be destitute.


What the fuck are you babbling about, troll?


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22092347 -

Are you so stupid you can't keep up with a conversation? Try harder.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22094314 -

zappaisgod said:
I have no desire to go to jail.


Then why don't you move out of one the highest taxed states in the nation?

Oh right, because then your business would suffer.

It's almost like taxes and economic prosperity are somehow linked.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22094350 -

Any economic prosperity in NY is almost entirely driven by the people you hate.  Bankers.  The rest of the state would be fucked without the banking industry and the NYC driven tax regime has pretty much decimated industry upstate.  Once again, you have no clue what you are talking about.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22094771 -

11-7


--------------------
http://bunkpolice.com/basic-test-kit/
Vienna Declaration
Salvia Divinorum The Docudrahma

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22095135 -

zappaisgod said:
Any economic prosperity in NY is almost entirely driven by the people you hate.  Bankers.  The rest of the state would be fucked without the banking industry and the NYC driven tax regime has pretty much decimated industry upstate.  Once again, you have no clue what you are talking about.


So because the people I dislike are driving the economy there, they aren't driving it?

Clearly I'm the one confused. If it wasn't optimal to run your business in NY you wouldn't do it. But you can't charge an arm and a leg for manual labor in Mississippi so there you are.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22095177 -

The financial industry is paying the inflated taxes which have driven business out of upstate.  NYC has ruined upstate NY.  You are definitely confused.  As per usual.  Liberal control based in NYC has decimated the economy of the rest of the state.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22095188 -

zappaisgod said:
The financial industry is paying the inflated taxes which have driven business out of upstate.  NYC has ruined upstate NY.  You are definitely confused.  As per usual.  Liberal control based in NYC has decimated the economy of the rest of the state.


If the economy is so devastated why don't you leave? How are you so prosperous?

Without NYC your state would be Pennsylvania.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22095217 -

Without NYC upstate would be a lot better off.  But I make my living off of NYC.  I Work in some of the richest towns in the country building houses for people who work in the city.  Trickle down is very real in my life.

Westchester County is not upstate.  To determine what is upstate look at a Metro North train map.  Beyond the end of their lines is upstate.  And it is fucked.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22095360 -

Quote:
Honestly, the attitude expressed by the OP is a bunch of sour grapes. Somebody who is truly successful doesn't sit around complaining about the bread crumbs thrown to lazy people. Change your own situation, and stop worrying about what other people are getting or not getting. They aren't keeping you down, it is up to you to succeed. What do you guys say? Oh, yeah... Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.



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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: ergoticmandala]
    #22095369 -

I doubt that is my quote.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: WAN]
    #22097832 -

WAN said:
Maybe nothing said by *YOU* in these forums will ever change anything. Possibly due to you being a rude, aggressive person that keeps insulting others.  I, on the other hand, might change things just by speaking my piece on these boards.  Do you know why there is internet police and why the feds monitor online boards?  It's because some posters are able to influence others and change people's opinions.  You aren't one of them, though.


You are full of yourself. Nothing said here by anyone will result in change.


Quote:
Also, I sense that you are trying very hard to insult me.  Kind of funny to watch.


You're taking care of that by yourself.



Quote:
I never said it wasn't income redistribution in the beginning.  And yes, income redistribution can be good on some scale.  We (except you, who thinks there is nothing he can do to change people's opinions) just need to hash out the details about how much this should be.


Liar.

"Having a social safety net for the low-income class (and maybe genuinely disabled folks) is not "income redistribution"."

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22088354#22088354


Quote:
By your reasoning, ALL taxes are collected by government via some form of implicit (or maybe explicit?) government force.  Therefore, all taxes are bad?


WTF? Are you this disingenuous in real life? I've stated a few times that there are legitimate functions of government. You must be trolling by this point. If not, I feel bad for you.


Quote:
I do think I am quite the moral being for not just letting people die before my eyes.


Yet your morals fail you when it comes to force. That's a shame. I'm glad my morals aren't so "flexible".

It is moral to help, it's not moral to force that help. You, being willing to resort to force, do not qualify as moral.


Quote:
Also, I find it kind of strange that you are so much against "income distribution" for the poor, the sick, and the ones struck down by some random tragedies, but you don't seem to have an issue with our taxes going towards the military.  You do know that a lot of our taxes are being siphoned off by these rich national defense companies and contractors, right?  How come you are not against this form of income redistribution?  I know that some of them have indeed produced goods or services for us, but even more of them are just straight up profiting from it.  sounds like "income redistribution" in some way to me.


*Sigh* As has been pointed out, there are legitimate functions of government. The military is one of those.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22097982 -

luvdemshrooms said:
WAN said:
Maybe nothing said by *YOU* in these forums will ever change anything. Possibly due to you being a rude, aggressive person that keeps insulting others.  I, on the other hand, might change things just by speaking my piece on these boards.  Do you know why there is internet police and why the feds monitor online boards?  It's because some posters are able to influence others and change people's opinions.  You aren't one of them, though.


You are full of yourself. Nothing said here by anyone will result in change.


Quote:
Also, I sense that you are trying very hard to insult me.  Kind of funny to watch.


You're taking care of that by yourself.



Quote:
I never said it wasn't income redistribution in the beginning.  And yes, income redistribution can be good on some scale.  We (except you, who thinks there is nothing he can do to change people's opinions) just need to hash out the details about how much this should be.


Liar.

"Having a social safety net for the low-income class (and maybe genuinely disabled folks) is not "income redistribution"."

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22088354#22088354


I take that back, then.  I was in a big hurry to defend having social safety nets.

Quote:
Quote:
By your reasoning, ALL taxes are collected by government via some form of implicit (or maybe explicit?) government force.  Therefore, all taxes are bad?


WTF? Are you this disingenuous in real life? I've stated a few times that there are legitimate functions of government. You must be trolling by this point. If not, I feel bad for you.



Quote:
I do think I am quite the moral being for not just letting people die before my eyes.


Yet your morals fail you when it comes to force. That's a shame. I'm glad my morals aren't so "flexible".

It is moral to help, it's not moral to force that help. You, being willing to resort to force, do not qualify as moral.


Quote:
Also, I find it kind of strange that you are so much against "income distribution" for the poor, the sick, and the ones struck down by some random tragedies, but you don't seem to have an issue with our taxes going towards the military.  You do know that a lot of our taxes are being siphoned off by these rich national defense companies and contractors, right?  How come you are not against this form of income redistribution?  I know that some of them have indeed produced goods or services for us, but even more of them are just straight up profiting from it.  sounds like "income redistribution" in some way to me.


*Sigh* As has been pointed out, there are legitimate functions of government. The military is one of those.


All in all, I just want to say that I actually sort of agree with you that there shouldn't be (too much!) income redistribution (hurray for you!  you *can* change people's opinions online).  I think it is a lofty goal for people to have.  But my only concern is when, like I said, there is a bum who has no friends, no family, and he cannot find any charity to help him, and in this case, the government should be required to step in and help this individual. And I noticed you keep avoiding this issue.  Anyway, I decided to make a new thread entirely dedicated to this topic, because I feel that it is a worthwhile one.  See it here:  http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22097977

Maybe we can get more people to participate and hear all different sides to this issue.

p.s. ughh I messed up the quotes.

p.s.s  Also, there is another thing I am concerned about.  Let's say there is someone afflicted with schizophrenia.  This person requires medication in order for him to be relatively normal so that he won't harm others (some schizophrenics harm others when they arent taking meds).  What if the medicine regimen for this person is so much that his friends, family plus the help of charity, cannot cover it?  Shouldn't the government step in to intervene?  Up here in Canada, we have this thing called "plan G".  Basically it's a drug plan that pays for all medication costs for people diagnosed with schizophrenia (and other mental illnesses).  I think this is very good and that it confers benefits on a lot of entities, the patients themselves, the society, and the friends and families of said patients now have a "smaller load" to carry.  The most important thing is that, if these patients only relied on their friends, family, and on private charity, they very probably would not have gotten enough help and they would end up hurting themselves or maybe even others, and then the society would suffer.

Edited by WAN (08/16/15 09:33 AM)

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22098029 -

zappaisgod said:
Without NYC upstate would be a lot better off.  But I make my living off of NYC.  I Work in some of the richest towns in the country building houses for people who work in the city.  Trickle down is very real in my life.

Westchester County is not upstate.  To determine what is upstate look at a Metro North train map.  Beyond the end of their lines is upstate.  And it is fucked.


I just wanted to you to admit that you make your living off the rich liberal fucks that you constantly rail against.

I'm so proud of you.


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