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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22091060 -

zappaisgod said:
The Ecstatic said:
zappaisgod said:
Not at all.  I'm flat out saying that you are advocating the allocation of other people's money to bums and losers.  I am asking how much skin you have in the game or if you yoursself are a welfare case bum.  Transparency is a wonderful thing as is ascertaining motives.  Methinks you are probably the sucker and not the tit.


You're a joke.

Go build a woodshed you can flagellate yourself in, I've never seen someone who claimed to be on top of the world feel so sorry for themselves.

I must have missed the part of the Constitution where only those who fall into the highest tax bracket are allowed to have an opinion on where their PUBLIC funds go.

Got a beef with the way our government spends our money? Print some bumper stickers.


I must have missed the part of the Constitution that said I had to suppport titty suckers.

I note you didn't answer my question.


It'd be more a combination of the income tax law and the legislation involving social safety net programs.

As for your question, no I don't use any federal or state assistance. I'm in in a mid level tax bracket and the only deductions I qualify for are the clothes I buy for work and the school I pay for our of my pocket.

I imagine a larger share of my income goes to those programs than yours.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22091070 -

Stonehenge said:
Unemployment still is taken by force, by the govt, and is a social welfare benefit. It comes out of the workers, employers don't pay it out of their pocket. They figure in all benefits and costs before giving a figure, same as you do. If not for income tax, ss, fica, and all that crap, people would be paid a lot more.

No one is bitching about unemployment comp.


I am bitching about the extension of benefits that were not funded.  FICA is ss.  Some tax is necessary.  I am not an anarchist.  You just made the case that employees paid for unemplyment.  Taxpayers did not.  Until Obama.  As an independent contractor I don't cover myself for unemployment and am thus not eligible for benefits.  I could have chosen to but instead chose not to. The government didn't force me to do anything.  FICA and Income tax, on the other hand, I had no choice.  Stonehenge, you once again demonstrate that you have no clue.  Do you even work?


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22091080 -

The Ecstatic said:
It'd be more a combination of the income tax law and the legislation involving social safety net programs.

As for your question, no I don't use any federal or state assistance. I'm in in a mid level tax bracket and the only deductions I qualify for are the clothes I buy for work and the school I pay for our of my pocket.

I imagine a larger share of my income goes to those programs than yours.


Not fucking likely.  Between federal, state, increased medicare/medicaid our last dollar is taxed over 50 percent.  The only deductions we have is mortgage interest and business expenses.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22091183 -

zappaisgod said:
What plug was pulled?  Those places suck because the people who live there suck and have been run by liberals for decades.


I'm saying IF the plug was pulled, no one would have the guts to live next to those people, it's barely tolerable with the current freebies.

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22091416 -

I don't have to work, I'm retired.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22091421 -

At 18?


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22091581 -

zappaisgod said:
The Ecstatic said:
It'd be more a combination of the income tax law and the legislation involving social safety net programs.

As for your question, no I don't use any federal or state assistance. I'm in in a mid level tax bracket and the only deductions I qualify for are the clothes I buy for work and the school I pay for our of my pocket.

I imagine a larger share of my income goes to those programs than yours.


Not fucking likely.  Between federal, state, increased medicare/medicaid our last dollar is taxed over 50 percent.  The only deductions we have is mortgage interest and business expenses.


You need to fire your accountant if that's true.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22091610 -

I have no desire to go to jail.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22091611 -

luvdemshrooms said:
WAN said:
So how do you propose that we take care of the disabled folks? 


Family, friends, charities.


Quote:
If "income redistribution" is such a big no-no with you.


It is and I make sure my representatives know it.


Quote:
Also, I assure you that there will not be any "killing" of them, since I don't want to be thought of as having a "limited thinking" by you.  (seriously, are you always this rude to people you debate with?)


When it's appropriate.


Quote:
I am pretty sure you didn't offer a solution.  If you did, care to repeat it?  I must have missed it.


And yet... I did.


Quote:
If we don't do this, how are we going to take care of the disabled people?  I know I am repeating myself, but it's worth considering.


You're right. You're repeating yourself.


Quote:
You should try not to insult people who you debate with.  This reflects poorly on you.  You sound like a lippy, immature child with ill-breeding.


Wahhhh. Better than sounding like a butthurt whiner.


Quote:
Anyway, my point is that if we take what you say to its logical conclusion (you said you are being "logical"), then it follows that we should be as callous as you are and turn our backs on those who need help the most.


Once again you display a limitation of thought and a lack of reading comprehension.


Quote:
If we don't ear-mark a portion of our taxes (which yes, are taken from tax-payers by force) for social safety nets, how are we going to take care of the most helpless and vulnerable members of our societies? Please don't say "private charity".


Family, friends, private charity.


I won't stoop to your level by sitting here trading insults back and forth with you.  I will say though, that you are a liability onto your own cause.  Look at you, trying hard to score verbal victory, and making ideological opponents out of  people you debate with.  You fail to realize that the most important thing for someone with a strong political opinion/concern like you is to win people over to his side, and capturing their hearts and minds. 

Anyway, onto your post.  I don't think it is a very good idea to rely solely on friends, family, and private charities, mostly for the reason that these can sometimes fail (as stonehenge has pointed out).  What if there is a bum who has no friends, no family members, and there is no charity around where he is, (maybe there is, but they are spread out too thin, for some reason).  And this bum gets sick.  Should we just watch him die?  No.  I believe in this case, the government should step in and, *gasps* use taxpayers money to save this individual.  Is this income redistribution?  Yes, it is.  However it is very well spent, and those of us who have a conscience and care about our fellow men would not have wanted it any other way.  So my conclusion?  Some level of income redistribution is required in an ethical society. Income redistribution is not entirely bad.

Another reason I don't like this idea of yours is that some (selfish!) people would get to duck out of taking care of the weakest, most vulnerable members of our society.  Someone got sick?  Someone is starving?  Someone got injured at work?  No worries.  Let their friends/families care for them.  As for me?  Nah I aint spending one dime to help some stranger that I don't know.  Does this scenario sound desirable to you?

I believe that stonehenge covered it really well.  There is no avoiding some form of income redistribution, in a society populated by moral beings such as ours.  And taxes get collected and spent on stuff that some people genuinely have an issue with all the time, but that's the price we pay for living in societies.

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: WAN]
    #22091638 -

You have made exactly zero moral case for compulsory government assistance.  Where do you stand on requiring drug tests and work from recipients?


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22091665 -

>FICA is ss.

Its also medicare, you are revealing your ignorance.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22091763 -

zappaisgod said:
You have made exactly zero moral case for compulsory government assistance.  Where do you stand on requiring drug tests and work from recipients?


But we can't just let people die if there aren't any friends/family/charity around to help them.

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: WAN] * 1
    #22091778 -

Zap would sing a different tune if he was down and out. He is a greedy so and so who wants to keep every dime he has and would let everyone die rather than be taxed a dollar.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22091793 -

I'd let you go.  Why should I suppport you?


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22091797 -

Stonehenge said:
Zap would sing a different tune if he was down and out. He is a greedy so and so who wants to keep every dime he has and would let everyone die rather than be taxed a dollar.


stone I am (pleasantly!) surprised to hear that you think a little bit of socialism is good.

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: WAN]
    #22091840 -

>stone I am (pleasantly!) surprised to hear that you think a little bit of socialism is good.

Only a little, not the full bore. The post office is an example of a socialized institution that does a lot of good. I don't see anyone saying lets close it down though president idiot gave in to the unions and busted the bank on the usps. Try sending a letter via fedex or ups, it will cost you a small fortune.

I'm in favor of a limited safety net so that tragedy does not mean life as a homeless person. Once someone gets way down like that they can't really come back. No one will hire you if you have no home, no phone, no clean clothes and stink. The most they get is menial back breaking day jobs then they have to give up a lot of their check to the cashing places. Zap talks a good game but he is a hypocrite. He grew up with privilege and looks down on everyone else.

If he got busted for cutting corners, lost his business, got thrown on the street, he would change his tune in an instant and demand more handouts. "I paid taxes all my life, where is my welfare check"


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22091862 -

Ifs ands and buts.  I didn't fuck up.  And I wasn't born into privilege.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22091867 -

The government should be out of the mail business.  There are private companies that do it better.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22092040 -

>The government should be out of the mail business.  There are private companies that do it better.

Name one.

>I didn't fuck up.

Lucky you.

>And I wasn't born into privilege.

Liar. You already admitted being put through college and who knows what else. Not everyone is born into a good situation. Not everyone escapes injury, illness or other hardship. Steven jobs did very well but got struck down, many others too.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22092066 -

Stonehenge said:
>The government should be out of the mail business.  There are private companies that do it better.

Name one.


Fedex.  UPS.  There are others.
Quote:
>I didn't fuck up.

Lucky you.


There was no luck involved
Quote:
>And I wasn't born into privilege.

Liar. You already admitted being put through college and who knows what else. Not everyone is born into a good situation. Not everyone escapes injury, illness or other hardship. Steven jobs did very well but got struck down, many others too.



You have a strange idea of privilege.  I went to a state school.  I had a scholarship as well.  Straight middle class isn't privilege and I have no intention of letting you get away with inventing new definitions for words.  Everybody dies.  You make no sense, as usual.  How much was the taxpayer on the hook for Steve Jobs" crazy ass treatments?  Hint.  It was zero.  There is absolutely nothing "lucky" about living to be 58.  NOT living to my age is unlucky.  Do you understand the difference?


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