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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22088691 -

>Around here there are plenty of shelters for homeless people but they choose the streets.

Around here there are shelters but with limited space and waiting lists.

> Do you know why?  Aside from the obvioous crazies, homeless shelters are mostly populated by fucking assholes you wouldn't willingly spend one minute with.

That is one problem with offering a crappy room and plain food. You have to live with a lot of bums and assholes. I'm not sure what the solution is but a rich country can afford to have some sort of safety net. Not a hammock for life for the lazy but a temporary respite for those in need. Not everyone has relatives who will help, not everyone makes it to financial security. A car accident, illness, loss of job, can make a big difference. You lose your job, you can't pay the mortgage, and then what happens? I agree most of those people were overextended and should not have counted on always having a job but its an easy mistake to make.

The jackass sending off our money to the middle east could have spent it here but nooooooo. He makes bumbling carter look like a genius.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22088718 -

The Ecstatic said:
zappaisgod said:
The Ecstatic said:
Whatever helps you sleep at night.


How many are you being forced to support?  You're real free with other people's money aren't you?


What?

My tax dollars go to the entirety of the budget, so however many people there are using said programs I guess.

And the only money I have is my own.


What is the amount of income tax that you pay?  Not FICA, Just income tax.  Because we are paying over a hundred thousand every year.  You are awful generous with other people's money.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: WAN]
    #22088741 -

You have to be a complete fuck up or nuts to be homeless.  The worst thing that ever happened was when the courts shut down the nuthouses.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22088750 -

Stonehenge said:
>Around here there are plenty of shelters for homeless people but they choose the streets.

Around here there are shelters but with limited space and waiting lists.

> Do you know why?  Aside from the obvioous crazies, homeless shelters are mostly populated by fucking assholes you wouldn't willingly spend one minute with.

That is one problem with offering a crappy room and plain food. You have to live with a lot of bums and assholes. I'm not sure what the solution is but a rich country can afford to have some sort of safety net. Not a hammock for life for the lazy but a temporary respite for those in need. Not everyone has relatives who will help, not everyone makes it to financial security. A car accident, illness, loss of job, can make a big difference. You lose your job, you can't pay the mortgage, and then what happens? I agree most of those people were overextended and should not have counted on always having a job but its an easy mistake to make.

The jackass sending off our money to the middle east could have spent it here but nooooooo. He makes bumbling carter look like a genius.


Charity.  It exists.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22088983 -

They had charity in olden times too and people still died in the streets. That is not the whole answer. If you had bad luck in your life instead of mostly good luck, you might see it a little differently. I will never need a handout, I don't want it for me but some dispensation should be made for the down and out. If a few bucks of your taxes goes for it and its spent wisely, tough shit if you don't like it.

The sheer incompetence, waste, fraud and graft in govt is one huge reason people are doing poorly. Not the only reason but a big part of it. I think we agree about obumble. I happen to think the system is broken and needs major fixing, not just a tune up.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22089016 -

People need to stop relying on Govt and take matters in their own hands.  The Govt is inept.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22089652 -

public speaking


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http://bunkpolice.com/basic-test-kit/
Vienna Declaration
Salvia Divinorum The Docudrahma

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: WAN]
    #22090036 -

WAN said:
So how do you propose that we take care of the disabled folks? 


Family, friends, charities.


Quote:
If "income redistribution" is such a big no-no with you.


It is and I make sure my representatives know it.


Quote:
Also, I assure you that there will not be any "killing" of them, since I don't want to be thought of as having a "limited thinking" by you.  (seriously, are you always this rude to people you debate with?)


When it's appropriate.


Quote:
I am pretty sure you didn't offer a solution.  If you did, care to repeat it?  I must have missed it.


And yet... I did.


Quote:
If we don't do this, how are we going to take care of the disabled people?  I know I am repeating myself, but it's worth considering.


You're right. You're repeating yourself.


Quote:
You should try not to insult people who you debate with.  This reflects poorly on you.  You sound like a lippy, immature child with ill-breeding.


Wahhhh. Better than sounding like a butthurt whiner.


Quote:
Anyway, my point is that if we take what you say to its logical conclusion (you said you are being "logical"), then it follows that we should be as callous as you are and turn our backs on those who need help the most.


Once again you display a limitation of thought and a lack of reading comprehension.


Quote:
If we don't ear-mark a portion of our taxes (which yes, are taken from tax-payers by force) for social safety nets, how are we going to take care of the most helpless and vulnerable members of our societies? Please don't say "private charity".


Family, friends, private charity.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 1
    #22090120 -

luvdemshrooms said:
Family, friends, private charity.


And what if that fails, as systems like that have existed since we had societies, and they ALWAYS FAILED!

You people who are trying to paint this like "logical people VS bleeding heart hippies"...
Have you ever considdered that this narative is utterly false? It is just a crutch for you to justify your views, as if they are moral and just. They are not. Coldhearted pricks.

What about the schizo who gets no help? Family, friends, private charity you say? But all of these things exist. SO WHY DOESN'T HE GET ANY HELP?

Fuckers.


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Edited by Turtletotem (08/14/15 06:49 AM)

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Turtletotem] * 1
    #22090218 -

>And what if that fails, as systems like that have existed since we had societies, and they ALWAYS FAILED!

I have to agree with monkeyboi on this one. While I'm no fan of income redistribution, a tiny bit of socialism is inescapable ever since we moved past the feudal era. Even then they had some, and going back to the tribal system they had informal socialism. Charity works on the tribal level because everyone knows everyone else and is probably related to them. When societies get big they get cold and uncaring.

We need a balance between the concept that each man is an island and looks only to himself or his small circle, his personal tribe, and the concept that the state is nanny and caretaker from cradle to grave. If everything is guaranteed and no effort required, human nature means that most will take the easy route and do little or nothing. If no one helps anyone else, too many start dying in the streets.

Reform crooked govt and you have loads of funds to have a reasonable safety net plus heaps of public benefits like roads, cheap airwaves, govt funding of research and so on. Instead, we let evil people spend all the money on military action that does no one any good. We attack a different enemy every month pretending we are accomplishing something. Politicians fill their pockets and block any reform.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Turtletotem] * 1
    #22090225 -

There's nothing false about it. While helping people is a worthy and moral thing to do, forcing others to help is immoral and the wrong thing to do.

A moral goal achieved through immoral means... does not equal a moral result. The means matter.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22090657 -

zappaisgod said:
The Ecstatic said:
zappaisgod said:
The Ecstatic said:
Whatever helps you sleep at night.


How many are you being forced to support?  You're real free with other people's money aren't you?


What?

My tax dollars go to the entirety of the budget, so however many people there are using said programs I guess.

And the only money I have is my own.


What is the amount of income tax that you pay?  Not FICA, Just income tax.  Because we are paying over a hundred thousand every year.  You are awful generous with other people's money.


Are you implying I wrote the federal budget?


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22090714 -

Not at all.  I'm flat out saying that you are advocating the allocation of other people's money to bums and losers.  I am asking how much skin you have in the game or if you yoursself are a welfare case bum.  Transparency is a wonderful thing as is ascertaining motives.  Methinks you are probably the sucker and not the tit.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22090855 -

zappaisgod said:
Not at all.  I'm flat out saying that you are advocating the allocation of other people's money to bums and losers.  I am asking how much skin you have in the game or if you yoursself are a welfare case bum.  Transparency is a wonderful thing as is ascertaining motives.  Methinks you are probably the sucker and not the tit.


You're a joke.

Go build a woodshed you can flagellate yourself in, I've never seen someone who claimed to be on top of the world feel so sorry for themselves.

I must have missed the part of the Constitution where only those who fall into the highest tax bracket are allowed to have an opinion on where their PUBLIC funds go.

Got a beef with the way our government spends our money? Print some bumper stickers.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: imachavel]
    #22090886 -

A little bit of socialism is required in modern society. Who will clean the streets or repair them otherwise? Who will build the roads in the first place, put up street lights, maintain order, etc? I know I will be told these are essential govt services and not realocation but the result is the same. People are forced to pay for it and the public benefits.

The question we need to ask is whether taking care of the truly destitute or unfortunate is a public benefit? People who feel secure mostly say let them die, tough luck. Those who feel vulnerable say lets have lots of benefits and perhaps a lifetime handout. We have gone too far in that direction but I still think some sort of safety net is in order, but for how long and who gets it?

Unemployment benefits are taken by force and given to those who lose their jobs through no fault of their own. I don't see a lot of complaining about that even though it is a form of socialized redistribution of wealth. Anyone can be laid off just as anyone can get sick or injured.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22090896 -

Like you said a few pages ago, most of the entitlements (welfare, food stamps, disability, ect) are social insurance.  Most conservatives complain about them based on principle, but my suggestion to them, go live in Baltimore, Detroit, or any other city after we pulled the plug on them, they wouldn't have the guts.

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: qman]
    #22090938 -

What plug was pulled?  Those places suck because the people who live there suck and have been run by liberals for decades.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22090960 -

Stonehenge said:
Unemployment benefits are taken by force and given to those who lose their jobs through no fault of their own. I don't see a lot of complaining about that even though it is a form of socialized redistribution of wealth. Anyone can be laid off just as anyone can get sick or injured.


The contract for unemployment benefits iswas half pay for up to six months and it is was FULLY funded by employers.  Your unemployment rate that you paid was based on your past behavior in laying people off.  Laid a lot of people off and you paid a higher rate.  Never lay anybody off and it gets pretty low.  There were NO tax dollars involved and there was a finite period when you could receive benefits.  Until this commmie cunt took office and the Dems took Congress and decided that the poor babies needed to have their benefits extended.  That made it welfare.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22090974 -

The Ecstatic said:
zappaisgod said:
Not at all.  I'm flat out saying that you are advocating the allocation of other people's money to bums and losers.  I am asking how much skin you have in the game or if you yoursself are a welfare case bum.  Transparency is a wonderful thing as is ascertaining motives.  Methinks you are probably the sucker and not the tit.


You're a joke.

Go build a woodshed you can flagellate yourself in, I've never seen someone who claimed to be on top of the world feel so sorry for themselves.

I must have missed the part of the Constitution where only those who fall into the highest tax bracket are allowed to have an opinion on where their PUBLIC funds go.

Got a beef with the way our government spends our money? Print some bumper stickers.


I must have missed the part of the Constitution that said I had to suppport titty suckers.

I note you didn't answer my question.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22090995 -

Unemployment still is taken by force, by the govt, and is a social welfare benefit. It comes out of the workers, employers don't pay it out of their pocket. They figure in all benefits and costs before giving a figure, same as you do. If not for income tax, ss, fica, and all that crap, people would be paid a lot more.

No one is bitching about unemployment comp.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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