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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22087528 -

The Ecstatic said:
zappaisgod said:
If you aren't that bright you can still get better at your trade through repititon and hard work.  No, morons should not have children that the rest of us have to pay for.


What should we do about morons having kids?

Don't tell me the proud soaring eagle of freedom is a eugenics fan.


Stop giving them money.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22087577 -

My grandparents worked together in a communal sense/family in villages. I think that is long gone because of our population.

Give tax benefits, work benefits to people who castrate/tied.
Give benefits to people who adopt.
Reward people with genes that are beneficial. Yup you won the biological lottery.
the spermbank that got developed in 1980 by Robert Graham for Nobel Prize winners and other scientists.

It's just that we don't go further in this science that we can't pinpoint which situational genes are beneficial.

With the likes of Kickstarter... Give them money for support, but only if they have incentive... Yeah hard to translate to the real world reality.

Edited by Beanhead (08/13/15 02:43 PM)

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22087737 -

zappaisgod said:
The Ecstatic said:
zappaisgod said:
If you aren't that bright you can still get better at your trade through repititon and hard work.  No, morons should not have children that the rest of us have to pay for.


What should we do about morons having kids?

Don't tell me the proud soaring eagle of freedom is a eugenics fan.


Stop giving them money.


Punish the child for the parents' actions?


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22087901 -

I'm not the one punishing the child.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #22087948 -

Whatever helps you sleep at night.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: WAN]
    #22087955 -

WAN said:
You don't think we should take care of those of our countrymen who are the most helpless?


If some wish to help willingly, they should. No-one should be forced to help.


Quote:
Sounds like social darwinism.

Also, do you realize that if we did do this (referring to your idea of ridding our societies of "stupid people"), there would still be people on the bottom rungs?  There will always be people who are dumber.  They might be less dumb than the previous generations (owing to your excellent idea of "culling the herd") but they will still be relatively dumber than others.  And these people would face the same fate.


But at least the most stupid would be gone.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22088010 -

The Ecstatic said:
Whatever helps you sleep at night.


How many are you being forced to support?  You're real free with other people's money aren't you?


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22088163 -

luvdemshrooms said:
WAN said:
You don't think we should take care of those of our countrymen who are the most helpless?


If some wish to help willingly, they should. No-one should be forced to help.


I have to say that I agree with you on this, as a matter of principle.  However, I am just curious, do you propose that governments allow people to "opt out" of certain taxes, if they do not agree with them based on principles?  For example, if I dont like the fact so much of our tax money is going towards the military which then wastes it in foreign wars, can I then "opt out" of paying the part of my taxes that goes toward the military?

Quote:
Quote:
Sounds like social darwinism.

Also, do you realize that if we did do this (referring to your idea of ridding our societies of "stupid people"), there would still be people on the bottom rungs?  There will always be people who are dumber.  They might be less dumb than the previous generations (owing to your excellent idea of "culling the herd") but they will still be relatively dumber than others.  And these people would face the same fate.


But at least the most stupid would be gone.


This feels very "cold".

Edited by WAN (08/13/15 05:02 PM)

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: WAN]
    #22088318 -

WAN said:
I have to say that I agree with you on this, as a matter of principle.  However, I am just curious, do you propose that governments allow people to "opt out" of certain taxes, if they do not agree with them based on principles?  For example, if I dont like the fact so much of our tax money is going towards the military which then wastes it in foreign wars, can I then "opt out" of paying the part of my taxes that goes toward the military?


Military is a legitimate function of government. Income redistribution is not.


Quote:
This feels very "cold".


I can live with that, though I think a better word would be "logical".


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22088348 -

In a sane world, military action would be for defense of the country and nothing else. Unfortunately we do not live in such a sane world and our military is constantly killing innocent people, doing bombings and targeted assassinations based on rumor that the person was a militant or planning something bad. Worse yet, we get nothing of value out of it. No oil, no land, no peace, just more and more war. Trillions down the drain and nothing good to show for it.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 1
    #22088354 -

luvdemshrooms said:
WAN said:
I have to say that I agree with you on this, as a matter of principle.  However, I am just curious, do you propose that governments allow people to "opt out" of certain taxes, if they do not agree with them based on principles?  For example, if I dont like the fact so much of our tax money is going towards the military which then wastes it in foreign wars, can I then "opt out" of paying the part of my taxes that goes toward the military?


Military is a legitimate function of government. Income redistribution is not.


Having a social safety net for the low-income class (and maybe genuinely disabled folks) is not "income redistribution".  But anyway, you missed my point.  How do you think you are going to achieve what you are advocating?  You seem to be saying that nobody should be forced to pay taxes that go towards helping the low-income citizens. 

Quote:
Quote:
This feels very "cold".


I can live with that, though I think a better word would be "logical".


If you want to be "logical" all the way, then maybe you can advocate we simply round up all elderly people who are not working anymore and are unable to procreate anymore, and kill them.  This is very "logical", because they are unable to contribute to our societies anymore.

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: WAN]
    #22088376 -

The government took their money.  You might have a case if they hadn't but they did.  Procreation is not the purpose of human beings.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: WAN] * 1
    #22088486 -

WAN said:
Having a social safety net for the low-income class (and maybe genuinely disabled folks) is not "income redistribution".


Money is being taken from some and given to others. How is that not income redistribution?  Oh wait... it is.


Quote:
But anyway, you missed my point.  How do you think you are going to achieve what you are advocating?


I didn't miss it. You just didn't like the answer.


Quote:
You seem to be saying that nobody should be forced to pay taxes that go towards helping the low-income citizens.


I'm saying... income redistribution is not a legitimate function of government. No-one should be subject to having money they earned taken from them and given to others.


Quote:
If you want to be "logical" all the way, then maybe you can advocate we simply round up all elderly people who are not working anymore and are unable to procreate anymore, and kill them.  This is very "logical", because they are unable to contribute to our societies anymore.


Really? Your thinking is so limited that "kill them" is the best you can do?

I believe strongly in helping others. I believe strongly that income redistribution is not a legitimate function of government. Neither sentence cancels the other out.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22088503 -

You could look at it as a form of insurance. We all pay for insurance, most don't need it but if catastrophe hits, then we are taken care of. Some limited form of govt assistance for those who suffered hard times would be in order. What most of us object to is the lifetime handouts that lazy people have managed to finagle. Its easy to say when you are financially secure that no govt help should be given. The hard part is deciding how much help, for whom and for how long?


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 1
    #22088527 -

luvdemshrooms said:
WAN said:
Having a social safety net for the low-income class (and maybe genuinely disabled folks) is not "income redistribution".


Money is being taken from some and given to others. How is that not income redistribution?  Oh wait... it is.


So how do you propose that we take care of the disabled folks?  If "income redistribution" is such a big no-no with you.  Also, I assure you that there will not be any "killing" of them, since I don't want to be thought of as having a "limited thinking" by you.  (seriously, are you always this rude to people you debate with?)

Quote:
Quote:
But anyway, you missed my point.  How do you think you are going to achieve what you are advocating?


I didn't miss it. You just didn't like the answer.


I am pretty sure you didn't offer a solution.  If you did, care to repeat it?  I must have missed it.

Quote:
Quote:
You seem to be saying that nobody should be forced to pay taxes that go towards helping the low-income citizens.


I'm saying... income redistribution is not a legitimate function of government. No-one should be subject to having money they earned taken from them and given to others.



If we don't do this, how are we going to take care of the disabled people?  I know I am repeating myself, but it's worth considering.

Quote:
Quote:
If you want to be "logical" all the way, then maybe you can advocate we simply round up all elderly people who are not working anymore and are unable to procreate anymore, and kill them.  This is very "logical", because they are unable to contribute to our societies anymore.


Really? Your thinking is so limited that "kill them" is the best you can do?


You should try not to insult people who you debate with.  This reflects poorly on you.  You sound like a lippy, immature child with ill-breeding. Anyway, my point is that if we take what you say to its logical conclusion (you said you are being "logical"), then it follows that we should be as callous as you are and turn our backs on those who need help the most.

If we don't ear-mark a portion of our taxes (which yes, are taken from tax-payers by force) for social safety nets, how are we going to take care of the most helpless and vulnerable members of our societies? Please don't say "private charity".

Edited by WAN (08/13/15 06:55 PM)

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22088528 -

Insurance is voluntary.  I agree with your post in general.  But should it be forced?


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22088576 -

zappaisgod said:
Insurance is voluntary.  I agree with your post in general.  But should it be forced?


They force motorists to buy insurance in most states. The ideal might be to offer bare room and board to those in need but with conditions like drug testing. I'm in favor of being able to use drugs but you have to pay for them with your own money, not with handout money.

Go back a few hundred years and people died in the streets every day in England and many major countries. It was a fact of life, life was hard and if you didn't make the grade you died. I think a prosperous country should be able to guarantee a meal and a place to sleep for all. It would not be the ritz, they would complain like mad and be anxious to get out. That's the idea.

It would get rid of the homeless and provide an emergency cushion for those who had bad luck. Real bad luck could be illness or injury. Those who can't work should get a cushion for life and not just a cot and 3 hots, you get that in jail. Those who can work should get a limited cushion and then out you go.

A fraction of the money stupid head wasted in his 6 years could have done it easily.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22088637 -

Stonehenge said:
zappaisgod said:
Insurance is voluntary.  I agree with your post in general.  But should it be forced?


They force motorists to buy insurance in most states.


Nobody is forced to drive a car and in fact many millions of people don't.  Do you know why they require liability insurance for automobiles?  Because they are several thousand pound gasoline bombs that can severely injure others.  This was a similar argument that the retard in the White House made about Health Insurance.  It doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.
Quote:
The ideal might be to offer bare room and board to those in need but with conditions like drug testing. I'm in favor of being able to use drugs but you have to pay for them with your own money, not with handout money.


I absolutely believe that anybody who gets benefits should be subjected to drug alcohol and cigarette restriction as a condition.  You get notihng but food and water and a shitty room. 
Quote:
Go back a few hundred years and people died in the streets every day in England and many major countries. It was a fact of life, life was hard and if you didn't make the grade you died. I think a prosperous country should be able to guarantee a meal and a place to sleep for all. It would not be the ritz, they would complain like mad and be anxious to get out. That's the idea.


If the tax man didn't fuck people theis would easily be funded through charities like it was for centuries.  Alms for the poor.  But they also wouldn't have so many brats they can't afford.  It was a stigma.  It should be again.
Quote:
It would get rid of the homeless and provide an emergency cushion for those who had bad luck.


Around here there are plenty of shelters for homeless people but they choose the streets.  Do you know why?  Aside from the obvioous crazies, homeless shelters are mostly populated by fucking assholes you wouldn't willingly spend one minute with.
Quote:
Real bad luck could be illness or injury. Those who can't work should get a cushion for life and not just a cot and 3 hots, you get that in jail. Those who can work should get a limited cushion and then out you go.


Those who can work should have to put in 40 hours a week for the assistance
Quote:


A fraction of the money stupid head wasted in his 6 years could have done it easily.


And here is where I'm going to make a real point.  He ended workfare and his porkulus bill was largely spent protecting overpaid unions.  The unions do not want workfare because it infringes on work they think should be theirs.  Obama is a complete union whore.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22088677 -

zappaisgod said:
The Ecstatic said:
Whatever helps you sleep at night.


How many are you being forced to support?  You're real free with other people's money aren't you?


What?

My tax dollars go to the entirety of the budget, so however many people there are using said programs I guess.

And the only money I have is my own.


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Re: punishment for hard work and welfare as a reward for lazyness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22088689 -

zappaisgod said:
Stonehenge said:
zappaisgod said:
Insurance is voluntary.  I agree with your post in general.  But should it be forced?


They force motorists to buy insurance in most states.


Nobody is forced to drive a car and in fact many millions of people don't.  Do you know why they require liability insurance for automobiles?  Because they are several thousand pound gasoline bombs that can severely injure others.


What are these?
Quote:
Around here there are plenty of shelters for homeless people but they choose the streets.  Do you know why?  Aside from the obvioous crazies, homeless shelters are mostly populated by fucking assholes you wouldn't willingly spend one minute with.


I can vouch for this.  A long time ago (about 5,6 years ago), I was in another city all by myself, and I had very little money coming in, so I chose to live in shelters.  Moved from one to another.  I remember there was this pre-op transsexual (basically a dude who thought he was a woman.  As if!) threatened to "fuck me in the ass".  I was so scared that I spent what little money I had and stayed at a hostel that night. 

There were also a lot of mentally ill people.  As well as thieves.  Basically the worst kinds of people you could possibly hope to meet.

Edited by WAN (08/13/15 07:19 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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