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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21257841 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
qman said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Any employer who knowingly hires illegal workers and pays them less than minimum wage can face very serious consequences, so the answer is $12.


"can face very serious consequences"

Yet, if the laws are not enforced, there are no consequences. 

There's a big difference between living in the theoretical world and the real world, "so the answer is" $5.


If the majority of illegal immigrants make minimum wage or more, then the answer is $12 per hour.  And the vast majority do get minimum wage or more.


That doesn't make any sense, why would a employer break the law to pay an illegal minimum wage?  They would just hire a US citizen.

No, the main goal behind hiring an illegal is paying out low wages, lower than the minimum wage.

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: qman]
    #21257886 -

qman said:
That doesn't make any sense, why would a employer break the law to pay an illegal minimum wage?  They would just hire a US citizen.


Because at least the employer can claim he didn't know his worker was illegal.  If he pays less than minimum, then it's obvious he was intentionally breaking the law.

qman said:
No, the main goal behind hiring an illegal is paying out low wages, lower than the minimum wage.


No, it's to hire people who will do difficult jobs that no one else will do for minimum wage.  I'll bet you can't find any study showing that most illegal immigrants make less than the minimum.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21257920 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
qman said:
That doesn't make any sense, why would a employer break the law to pay an illegal minimum wage?  They would just hire a US citizen.


Because at least the employer can claim he didn't know his worker was illegal.  If he pays less than minimum, then it's obvious he was intentionally breaking the law.

qman said:
No, the main goal behind hiring an illegal is paying out low wages, lower than the minimum wage.


No, it's to hire people who will do difficult jobs that no one else will do for minimum wage.  I'll bet you can't find any study showing that most illegal immigrants make less than the minimum.


"can claim he didn't know his worker was illegal"

When you don't enter the wages in a legal payroll, you can't play stupid.

"it's to hire people who will do difficult jobs that no one else will do for minimum wage"

Thank you for supporting my argument, illegals drive down wages.

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: qman]
    #21257964 -

hiring illegals is about way more than paying a few quarters less for an hour of work. It's about labor law protections, payroll, SS, employer liabilities, overtime, etc.


I guess we should do away with all those so Americans can get more shit jobs we don't take anyway.


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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #21257976 -

We should do away with the whole concept of "illegals."  Let people come and work if they want at whatever pay they negotiate.  Exempt them from SS, both paying and receiving.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21258011 -

The Ecstatic said:
hiring illegals is about way more than paying a few quarters less for an hour of work. It's about labor law protections, payroll, SS, employer liabilities, overtime, etc.


I guess we should do away with all those so Americans can get more shit jobs we don't take anyway.


I agree there are more incentives than just the hourly wage, either way, illegals drive down wages for US citizens, but you don't seem to care.

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: Enlil]
    #21258033 -

Enlil said:
We should do away with the whole concept of "illegals."  Let people come and work if they want at whatever pay they negotiate.  Exempt them from SS, both paying and receiving.


"do away with the whole concept of "illegals."

That's basically where the policy is headed despite the US citizen not being in favor of it.

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: qman]
    #21258074 -

qman said:
The Ecstatic said:
hiring illegals is about way more than paying a few quarters less for an hour of work. It's about labor law protections, payroll, SS, employer liabilities, overtime, etc.


I guess we should do away with all those so Americans can get more shit jobs we don't take anyway.


I agree there are more incentives than just the hourly wage, either way, illegals drive down wages for US citizens, but you don't seem to care.


I care plenty. But your argument seems to be that we need to not help American workers because then employers will hire illegals. But they already hire illegals, and will continue to do so because you can't do away with all the incentives.

Besides, a majority of minimum wage workers aren't competing with illegals as it is.


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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21258114 -

The Ecstatic said:
qman said:
The Ecstatic said:
hiring illegals is about way more than paying a few quarters less for an hour of work. It's about labor law protections, payroll, SS, employer liabilities, overtime, etc.


I guess we should do away with all those so Americans can get more shit jobs we don't take anyway.


I agree there are more incentives than just the hourly wage, either way, illegals drive down wages for US citizens, but you don't seem to care.


I care plenty. But your argument seems to be that we need to not help American workers because then employers will hire illegals. But they already hire illegals, and will continue to do so because you can't do away with all the incentives.

Besides, a majority of minimum wage workers aren't competing with illegals as it is.


I don't want US workers to compete with illegal workers, creating an excess pool of labor is a bad thing for all US citizens.

I don't have an issue with moving the minimum wage higher, but it doesn't really fix the structural issues of too many people chasing too few jobs.

All the illegals and their family members need to be deported, but guess what?  The rich love the cheap labor, it's always about the money.

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: qman]
    #21258123 -

qman said:
Enlil said:
We should do away with the whole concept of "illegals."  Let people come and work if they want at whatever pay they negotiate.  Exempt them from SS, both paying and receiving.


"do away with the whole concept of "illegals."

That's basically where the policy is headed despite the US citizen not being in favor of it.


Because the US citizen doesn't understand that the championing of "free market capitalism" has done away with American exceptionalism.


--------------------

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: qman]
    #21258132 -

qman said:
I don't have an issue with moving the minimum wage higher, but it doesn't really fix the structural issues of too many people chasing too few jobs.



Agreed. Should we do away with global trade agreements and start using tariffs?

Would you support an infrastructure jobs bill like the one in Obama's proposed budget?


--------------------

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21258141 -

The Ecstatic said:
qman said:
Enlil said:
We should do away with the whole concept of "illegals."  Let people come and work if they want at whatever pay they negotiate.  Exempt them from SS, both paying and receiving.


"do away with the whole concept of "illegals."

That's basically where the policy is headed despite the US citizen not being in favor of it.


Because the US citizen doesn't understand that the championing of "free market capitalism" has done away with American exceptionalism.


I'm not sure what the average US citizen believes or understands the reasons their standard of living has deteriorated, but they don't favor illegals working and living in their country.

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #21258145 -

For me, the end game is socialism. We'll (industrialized nations to start) eventually reach a point where automation has replaced a vast majority of jobs, effectively neutering the labor market, leaving hundreds of millions without means to live. The paradigm will have to shift. A social ownership of the means of production, and shared earnings on that production seems (to me) the only way forward. Admittedly, this transition is at least a century away.


--------------------

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: qman]
    #21258160 -

qman said:
The Ecstatic said:
qman said:
Enlil said:
We should do away with the whole concept of "illegals."  Let people come and work if they want at whatever pay they negotiate.  Exempt them from SS, both paying and receiving.


"do away with the whole concept of "illegals."

That's basically where the policy is headed despite the US citizen not being in favor of it.


Because the US citizen doesn't understand that the championing of "free market capitalism" has done away with American exceptionalism.


I'm not sure what the average US citizen believes or understands the reasons their standard of living has deteriorated, but they don't favor illegals working and living in their country.


Point being the average American worker doesn't know what ideals are in his/her best interest. Globalization (the demon term for free market capitalism) erased our manufacturing base, all while Americans cheered it on.


--------------------

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21258206 -

The Ecstatic said:
qman said:
I don't have an issue with moving the minimum wage higher, but it doesn't really fix the structural issues of too many people chasing too few jobs.



Agreed. Should we do away with global trade agreements and start using tariffs?

Would you support an infrastructure jobs bill like the one in Obama's proposed budget?


I have always been in favor of tariffs, competing with third world labor has been a disaster for workers in all developed economies, unless you're the people benefiting from the cheap labor (business and stock owners).

The infrastructure bill is just a drop in the bucket, $45 billion per year is nothing for a $17 trillion economy, it needs to be 5 times that amount to make any difference, but guess what?  The people in power don't want to stimulate the economy, they prefer low growth, low inflation (no wage pressure), and ultra high profit margins like we have in the current environment.

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21258271 -

The Ecstatic said:
qman said:
Enlil said:
We should do away with the whole concept of "illegals."  Let people come and work if they want at whatever pay they negotiate.  Exempt them from SS, both paying and receiving.


"do away with the whole concept of "illegals."

That's basically where the policy is headed despite the US citizen not being in favor of it.


Because the US citizen doesn't understand that the championing of "free market capitalism" has done away with American exceptionalism.


I'm not sure what the average US citizen believes or understands the reasons their standard of living has deteriorated, but they don't favor illegals working and living in their country.


Point being the average American worker doesn't know what ideals are in his/her best interest. Globalization (the demon term for free market capitalism) erased our manufacturing base, all while Americans cheered it on.


"Americans cheered it on."

That's a tough one, the only time the issue of globalization (NAFTA) entered the political debate was during the 1992 presidential campaign.  Ross Perot pounded the table about the harmful effects of globalization for the US worker, he was ridiculed by both parties (R and D) and the media, people with no economic study claimed to know the outcome was going to be positive, today we know they were full of shit. The American people got suckered

The only other people to mention the harmful aspects of globalization after 1992 were Lou Dobbs and Pat Buchanan, today the subject isn't up for debate, "it's just the way the world is today" is the common response.

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: qman]
    #21258296 -

I just think tariffs at this point are a nonstarter. Anyone with the power to make it happen will not.

Agree with everything else though :thumbup:


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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21258572 -

I agree with qman's points as well.  :thumbup:

qman - I wasn't arguing that illegals don't push wages down.  I was saying we need a minimum to prevent wages from going down.

You seem to think that will cause employers to only hire illegals, but that's only true for employers willing to break the minimum wage law, which is a very small number of all employers.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21258726 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I agree with qman's points as well.  :thumbup:

qman - I wasn't arguing that illegals don't push wages down.  I was saying we need a minimum to prevent wages from going down.

You seem to think that will cause employers to only hire illegals, but that's only true for employers willing to break the minimum wage law, which is a very small number of all employers.


"You seem to think that will cause (a higher minimum wage) employers to only hire illegals"

No, I want the illegals out so that option isn't even available for employers, you seem to think flooding the labor market will illegals has no connection to weak wages, but it does.

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Re: Mike Rowe's thoughts on the minimum wage [Re: qman]
    #21258792 -

Production (and by association jobs) is correlated with demand. If 20,000,000 illegals are suddenly gone, it's shortsighted to say we'd gain 20,000,000 jobs, because that's 20M less consumers, 20M less people buying food and other goods, so there would most likely be a smaller labor market.

I do think we need a more stringent immigration system, but there's no feasible way to kick out 20M people, let alone deciding the consequences of doing so are worth it. We need a path to citizenship for anyone living here now, otherwise we might as well do nothing.


--------------------

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