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OfflineThe_LosT_SouL
Experimentor
Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 83
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
PC and SS ALTERNITIVES??
    #2091103 - 11/11/03 02:25 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

This Thread dealy kinda stoped dead when I realized that consistancy is part of efficiancy. If I ever do discover a more efficient way then a PC I will be sure to let you all know.. Mycofile, Ye shuld PM me about the bottom post :smile: peace
-------Origanalpost-------

Okay, I'm a semi experianced shroomer, and a noob grower but I know one thing, and I know alot of people will agree with me.

Using a pressure cooker to sterylize substrate is not practical. How many of you first time growers have a PC already? And how many of you actually went out to buy one? Now we without a PC could just use the SS process (Steam Sterylization) via a large pot with lid, some water, and a good hot stove burner. But, what other alternitives are out there for successful sterylization?

So here I will present you all with a little challenge, that will not only help me, but may help alot of other people who read this post.

Challenge 1: Is it possible to successfully sterylize substrate using a microwave

Challenge 2: Is it possible to successfully sterylize substrate using your oven

Let's discuss topic 1. I was reading in an earlier post about this person who was attempting to NUKE his substrate. Said his material turned into a brick and was unusable. I tried this, using 3 1/2pint canning jars worth of substrate into a plastic 1L yogurt container and nuked on high for 1 minute, and on power 5 for 2 minutes, followed by another 2 minutes, followed by another 2 minutes (I was afraid the plastic would melt if i nuked it for to long at once) My substrate seemed to be okay allthough I never got the change to try my mycelial take over experiment that's in the making. Here are my questions on the nuking idea

-will nuking it kill the nutrients in say brown rice flower preventing the mycelium from being able to thrive and allow mushrooms to grow?

-is microwaving safe?

-will it kill off 100% of the contaminents?

-do you think we could find or develope a practical method for microwaving substrates?

I am willing to experiment if you are? Who's up to the challenge? Let's see if we can't making microwaving substrates a new alternitive to a PC or SS method. Let me know what you all think, any and all info and help would be appreciated, not only to better myself, but to better everyone it can and to make this excelently satisfying hobby more efficient!

I know im eating up alot of bandwidth, but I think I might be going somewhere with this. Just so it's easier, I think, Im going to talk about topic 2 in a reply :smile:

Cheers and thanks everyone

A shroomerite of peace and mushrooms(the ones that don't kill us) 


--------------------
The light dimmed, as I further, helplessly staggered down the cold stoned ramp, into the stagnent depths of the Ananaki Catacombs. |The walls are covered in Mushrooms.. Gulp, chomp, glump! mmmmm goood!


Edited by The_LosT_SouL (11/14/03 01:39 AM)


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OfflineThe_LosT_SouL
Experimentor
Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 83
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: PC and SS ALTERNITIVES?? [Re: The_LosT_SouL]
    #2091141 - 11/11/03 02:39 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Before we talk about topic 2 here's another idea/question it's not related to the topics

-would using hot tap water be better, worse, or neutral in the substrate mixture?

I assume it would just kill off some bacteria and shouldn't hurt anything.

--------------
Topic 2:

Okay, so let's talk about cooking our substrate in the oven. I have not heard anything about going about it this way but here was the idea I came up with (untested)

1. Mix your substrate in mixing bowl
2. Pour mixture into baking tray or into a roasting pan or something, add dry verm layer, and cover tightly in tinfoil allowing atleast 1 small space for air exchange
3. Cook substrate in oven at 200f for maybe 1-1.5 hours
4. Remove, place tray in garbage bag and seal
(other possible 4th steps
  -remove tinfoil; remove dry verm layer;transfere substrate into other air tight container)

I don't know I have never tried it!
I read one post about someone who made a bulk substrate out of poo and straw, sterylized it in the oven at 200f for 1 hour, placed colonized millet into the new substrate layer, and sucessfully pinned with 1 instance of green mold contam well into the colonization stage, with a success on removing the contam and restoring the mycelial network.

Let's see if we can't perfect a method for alternitive sterylization process!

-----------
Here's another unrelated question

-am i right when i say "to pasturize casing material, boil some water, put casing material into a pillow case or something like that, stick pillow case in water for some length of time, wring out access water (just after removing the bag from the pot while the material is still in the bag)" ?

Another

-does the casing layer actually provide any nutrients to your mycelium, or is it getting all of that from the colonized substrate you have already prepared, crumbled and cased?

Sorry for usin up all the bandwidth ADMINS but i really think this will help people :smile:

Thanks for all your help everyone, let's see if we can't communicate, educated and evolve!

PEACE FROM THE EAST SIDE

 


--------------------
The light dimmed, as I further, helplessly staggered down the cold stoned ramp, into the stagnent depths of the Ananaki Catacombs. |The walls are covered in Mushrooms.. Gulp, chomp, glump! mmmmm goood!


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InvisibleHanky
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Re: PC and SS ALTERNITIVES?? [Re: The_LosT_SouL]
    #2091242 - 11/11/03 03:28 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

here's a good idea for you.
save some money and buy a PC,it will save you alot of contam induced heartbreak.
stick with steam sterilising at the very least.


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]




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Invisibledeanofmean
mycophagous

Registered: 12/07/02
Posts: 2,017
Loc: PNW
Re: PC and SS ALTERNITIVES?? [Re: The_LosT_SouL]
    #2091245 - 11/11/03 03:29 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Grain without pressure cooker Tec.

this tec. doesn't get a lot of attention, but i can tell you, it does work .


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: PC and SS ALTERNITIVES?? [Re: deanofmean]
    #2093147 - 11/11/03 05:44 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Using a pressure cooker to sterylize substrate is not practical.



I think the fact that you don't have one has put your thinking on it's side.  Everybody that has one thinks it's the only practical thing to use.  To say otherwise is silly.
Quote:

How many of you first time growers have a PC already?



That's why the gods gave us the pf tek which can be done without a pc.
Quote:

And how many of you actually went out to buy one?



I did, on my second grow, and now you should too :wink:

Here's the crux of it
Quote:

Challenge 1: Is it possible to successfully sterylize substrate using a microwave

Challenge 2: Is it possible to successfully sterylize substrate using your oven




Define "successfully".  The way I define successfully, no it's not possible.  If you would be happy with much higher than zero contamination rates, then maybe.  If you would rather spend your time doing in 5 steps what could be done in two, maybe (personally, my time is money so the PC is the cheaper option).  And if you are ok with always having to second guess every experiment, not knowing if it's going to work, if you wasted your innoculate etc, then maybe.

I guess what I'm getting at is yes, you might be able to do it successfully.  But in my opinion, you can't do it practically.
Steam your pf substrate until you find a pc.  Oh and if you're looking, they start at $20 at walmart :wink: 


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineThe_LosT_SouL
Experimentor
Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 83
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: PC and SS ALTERNITIVES?? [Re: mycofile]
    #2093667 - 11/11/03 08:16 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks mycofile but I don't think you really got what I was getting at in my posts. I would love to have a pressure cooker, because it's a much faster method and has a much higher success of non-contamination rate. But untill I get a walmart, I'm looking for alternative efficient methods.

What I ment by "Using a pressure cooker to sterylize substrate is not practical." was that in my opinion, a pressure cooker isn't a common thing to have in one's kitchen.

When I said successfully in that quote, basically i was saying this. Is it possible to sterylize substrate in a microwave and have it kill off the bacteria's you want to not be in your substrate, still maintaining a grade of substrate, so to speak, that you would steam sterylizing, boiling, pcing ect.

More then anything, I want to help out any body out there like me who don't own a pressure cooker/can't find a pressure cooker/don't want to spend the money on a pressure cooker if they can cook big bags of substrate in the microwave for like 10 minutes :smile:

I think it's possible, so i guess there is a small possibility that my thought that it is possible could possibley be possible :smile:

 


--------------------
The light dimmed, as I further, helplessly staggered down the cold stoned ramp, into the stagnent depths of the Ananaki Catacombs. |The walls are covered in Mushrooms.. Gulp, chomp, glump! mmmmm goood!


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Invisiblemycofile
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Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Re: PC and SS ALTERNITIVES?? [Re: The_LosT_SouL]
    #2096813 - 11/12/03 01:03 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I got it.  Let me try a different more direct approach.

People have been on the same quest as you at least since the mid 70's when mushroom cultivation came out of the experts labs and into the homes of DIYers.  You can find many examples and reports of peoples experiments by searching.  The best way to avoid a pc is the PF substrate and steam.  If you want other methods, you will not find one that provides results as consistent as the first two options.  If that's alright with you, then search for the reports, lots of people have posted varrying degrees of success.  Having been one who wanted desperately to do the same thing via microwave, oven, even chemical sterilization, I feel confident in stating that it's a huge waste of time, substrate, and innoculate.  If none of that matters to you, then yes you can get results sometimes.  If you don't want to waste so much material and effort, then steam pf jars until you find a PC.

The largest problem with alternate methods is that baking is dry heat (not as effective) and microwave methods will depend on the power of the microwave, the specific containers used, the amount in each container, and the number of containers done a particular time.  Much of this will varry from person to person, blocking consistency.  Also, both methods tend to alter the moisture content of the substrate more than steam or PC will, this will also varry from person to person depending on container, hole size/configuration etc.

Not trying to shoot you down, just ummm...trying to shoot you down :wink:  But if you figure out a way to do it consistently, Bravo.  I'll eat my words. 

Oh, here's something related that might interest you though.  In TMC, stamets gives an alternate spawn based on wheat bran and perlite.  This substrate can be steam sterilized like PF jars, but is more like grain in texture etc.  You can substitute BRF for the wheat bran and have a kind of PFish grain spawn without a PC.  This substrate is also great to treat with peroxide (if you bake the bran/brf at 400 for an hour first to destroy it's peroxidase) and use for G2G transfers.  This gives a non-PC owner the ability of making lots of "grain" spawn.  Formulas have been posted recently, search if interested.  Still, in my opinion the method is inferior enough to real grains that a PC is worth every penny, but it is an option. 


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineThe_LosT_SouL
Experimentor
Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 83
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: PC and SS ALTERNITIVES?? [Re: mycofile]
    #2104183 - 11/14/03 01:36 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Not only that, I was thinking... could microwaves have a dangerous effect on the substrate, leading to a big waste of time during cultivation?

I guess your right mycofile. A PC would be the best way to go to get more consitant results.

I wish I could just make up a big bag of substrate or spawn or whatever you'd call it and somehow PC that or something. Then you could colonize the substrate that's in the bag. I'm not sure how well innoculation of spores could be. Maybe mycelium water? or a mycelium transfere type idea? Maybe this isn't possible because a big bag of it would be very prone to contams?

I use 1/4cup Brown Rice Flower + 1/2cup Vermiculite + 60cc's h20 per 250ml widemouth canning jar. Steam for 1.5 hours.

Is this a very good method to use for doing casings? I don't mean the casing layer or anything, just the colonized substrate that will be in the casing.


--------------------
The light dimmed, as I further, helplessly staggered down the cold stoned ramp, into the stagnent depths of the Ananaki Catacombs. |The walls are covered in Mushrooms.. Gulp, chomp, glump! mmmmm goood!


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: PC and SS ALTERNITIVES?? [Re: The_LosT_SouL]
    #2116739 - 11/17/03 03:38 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

could microwaves have a dangerous effect on the substrate



I doubt it.  Too many people have had some success with it for me to think that.  I've personally had decent success with liquids (or agar) in the microwave, with no noted effects.  I also don't know of any science that would back this up.  I just think....never mind, I typed 19 paragraphs about what I think a few days agao :wink:

Quote:

I wish I could just make up a big bag of substrate or spawn or whatever you'd call it and somehow PC that or something. Then you could colonize the substrate that's in the bag. I'm not sure how well innoculation of spores could be. Maybe mycelium water? or a mycelium transfere type idea? Maybe this isn't possible because a big bag of it would be very prone to contams?



Silly boy, of course you can do that.  That's what they sell autoclavable bags with filter patches for!  You can fill it with your spawn/substrate of choice (btw, the only difference between spawn and substrate is that sub is fruited directly whereas spawn is used to innoculate a substrate).  BRF/Verm mixes, grains, whatever floats your boat.  Large bags can hold up to 2 gallons of substrate!  Innoculation can be done via spores, but it takes longer and takes alot of spores.  Liquid innoculants such as dextrose or honey water are preferred.  If you are sterile (have a glove box or flowhood) then you can use colonized spawn (commonly refferred to as grain to grain or G2G) to innoculate the bags and it works wonderfully.  Tip, the addition of precise amounts of peroxide to the substrate post pcing and pre innoculation makes G2G's much more likely to resist contamination even when absolute sterile procedure is not followed.  Big bags aren't more prone to contamination than smaller ones, you just lose more substrate when it does colonize.

Some bags are even made with resealing injection sites to allow for sterile innoculation with needles, and some are even made so that they can be sealed before pcing, preventing contamination post sterilization, pre-sealing:

I hope you weren't being a smart ass and you knew all that! 


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: PC and SS ALTERNITIVES?? [Re: mycofile]
    #2116744 - 11/17/03 03:41 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry, forgot about this:
Quote:

Is this a very good method to use for doing casings? I don't mean the casing layer or anything, just the colonized substrate that will be in the casing.



Yeah, it's fine. It's not as ideal as grains, but it works great. There should be lots of info in the teks and/or the faq about casing cakes.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineThe_LosT_SouL
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Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 83
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: PC and SS ALTERNITIVES?? [Re: mycofile]
    #2117859 - 11/17/03 08:06 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I already knew mostly of what you said. I was mostly just confirming. But see here's the thing, to me 'spawn' is colonized 'subsrate. I made up a small ammount of bagged substrate via steam sterylization and I have inoculated with mycelium from a colonized EQ cake.

(check out this link) http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...&PHPSESSID=


What is this liquid innoc u speak of?.. I wouldn't mind trying it if it is faster.

Also, a glovebox? Exactly, what would this look like and how would it help stop contams?


--------------------
The light dimmed, as I further, helplessly staggered down the cold stoned ramp, into the stagnent depths of the Ananaki Catacombs. |The walls are covered in Mushrooms.. Gulp, chomp, glump! mmmmm goood!


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OfflineThe_LosT_SouL
Experimentor
Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 83
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: PC and SS ALTERNITIVES?? [Re: The_LosT_SouL]
    #2117867 - 11/17/03 08:07 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

nemo it would be greatly appreciated if you did keep us posted. Any success with non PC and SS sterylization tek's are welcome here. And I might try out the majority of them.

I really appreciate everyone's feedback :smile:


--------------------
The light dimmed, as I further, helplessly staggered down the cold stoned ramp, into the stagnent depths of the Ananaki Catacombs. |The walls are covered in Mushrooms.. Gulp, chomp, glump! mmmmm goood!


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OfflinefourHoDmt
overclock yourbrain

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 148
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: PC and SS ALTERNITIVES?? [Re: The_LosT_SouL]
    #2117925 - 11/17/03 08:26 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

my pet ocelot is a first time grower, and he bought a PC for his first grow. he's going to end up casing 5 quarts of colonized rye grain and if everything works as well as it has so far he's going to have enough mushrooms to last him for a very very long time. a lot more than he'd have if he had foregone the PC and done PFtek.

PC is the way to go. if you don't have a walmart nearby, check out www.acehardwareonline.com . i got a 22qt mirro for $80 shipped. and like mycofile is telling you, you will more than make your $80 back in saved time, frustration, substrate, syringes, etc.


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Papaver [Re: The_LosT_SouL]
    #2119458 - 11/18/03 12:35 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)



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OfflineThe_LosT_SouL
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Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 83
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: PC and SS ALTERNITIVES?? [Re: ]
    #2121452 - 11/19/03 01:33 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Umm. Your top came off eh nemo? Usually jar lids don't just come off. That's really weird. I don't see any need to tape them though.

However, I have heard that a rye based substrate baked in the oven is okay too. alot more water loss then PCing or SSing, but it allowed for successful sterylization, and colonization. I guess if we were to use to oven to bake a big pan of it, we would want to add some more water into the subsrate. Anyone know anything about oven teks? If so enlighten us.

Nemo, let us know if you think microwaving is more a waste then it is a gain.

I recently decided to use bags instead of jars, however I will still use jars for colonizing an " innoculation cake" but provided my experiments go well I'll be PCing or SSing or baking or nuking up a huge huge bag of substrate that I will be casing. IF anyone wants to check out my post about using ziplock bags instead of jars, it's right here

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...&PHPSESSID=

Peacout until next time


--------------------
The light dimmed, as I further, helplessly staggered down the cold stoned ramp, into the stagnent depths of the Ananaki Catacombs. |The walls are covered in Mushrooms.. Gulp, chomp, glump! mmmmm goood!


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OfflineThe_LosT_SouL
Experimentor
Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 83
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: PC and SS ALTERNITIVES?? [Re: The_LosT_SouL]
    #2126694 - 11/21/03 05:10 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

What about a dryer?


--------------------
The light dimmed, as I further, helplessly staggered down the cold stoned ramp, into the stagnent depths of the Ananaki Catacombs. |The walls are covered in Mushrooms.. Gulp, chomp, glump! mmmmm goood!


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