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Let's say everyone was a vegetarian. The harvesting of crops would kill more animals than the amount that would be required to slaughter if everyone ate meat all the time.

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for me, being veg is more about the environment than saving animal lives. producing meat is terribly innefficient. we send food aid to starving nations, and what do they do? they feed it to their animals, rather than eating it themselves. there would be virtually no hunger issues if people simply grew crops for their own consumption. most deforestation is for the purpose of providing cattle with grazing area, or to grow crops that ultimately are fed to animals.

there's no question that an omnivorous diet was once essential to proper nutrition. but now every crop known to man is available to be either cultivated or imported by anyone. there's simply no need for us to consume meat anymore.


BF

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I think it's unethical to demand that developing countries do everything to conserve their forests. In the developed countries we cut down most of our own forests centuries ago. This is partly what helped us in becoming so rich. If developing countries can get richer and feed more of their people by cutting down parts of their forests, I think they should do so. There's still more than enough forest, and developing countries will become developed before they lose all their forests.

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If we cut down on our fossil fuel use now, like Kyoto wants us to do, we will be slowing down our economy and technological advancement enormously.

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Deforestation isn't such a big issue, the figures have been warped by greenpeace etc. Since 1945 global forest cover has been pretty stable at around 30% of land area.

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BrainFarmer said:

i don't see how our mistakes justify those of others.

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for some reason people seem to think that economic growth is a good thing no matter what. at this point, growing our economy does little more than increase the already obsene power of the economic aristocracy. our markets are bloated with useless BS that does nothing useful. we don't need jet skis or happy meal toys. it doesn't take a 400hp engine, or a Hum-vee to get to work and back.

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forests, despite common beleif, really aren't renewable resources. you can't just plant a bunch of trees. a true forest takes centuries, if not millenia to evolve. there's far more involved than just trees. just as a bunch of 10 year olds isn't a society, rows of trees all the same age isn't a forest.

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Economic growth can be a very a good thing. I'm assuming here, that you do have a pretty good income or education. But there are still loads of people in the US and Europe who live in relative poverty. General economic growth usually also brings growth in general prosperety. The economy should at least grow to a point where there is little to no poverty.

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  you assume wrong, my friend.  i have a GED and a couple of college credits, and i make less than $15,000 US per year.  the problem is in the distribution of the wealth, not the amount.  there's more than enough to go around, but the rich don't seem to agree.

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You know that environmental groups convinced the starving country Zambia to reject genetically modified food aid. This is food that everbody in the US is eating. Because all American corn is mixed, with about 30 percent genetically modified, and that all U.S. citizens, have been eating the mixture for six years without ill effects.

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Just like people saying I want natural vitamin C, not factory made. It's all just chemicals.

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First off, one thing that always annoys me (even though it might have little or no relevance here) is when people are ethical vegetarians based on not wanting to kill an animal. I feel like plants deserve just as much respect and you kill them to eat as well.

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you assume wrong, my friend. i have a GED and a couple of college credits, and i make less than $15,000 US per year. the problem is in the distribution of the wealth, not the amount. there's more than enough to go around, but the rich don't seem to agree.

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6 years just isn't a sufficient test run, although i personally would rather eat GMO than chemical doused produce. the main concern for me with GMO is, what if some of these artificial genes make their way into non-cultivated organisms. unleashing human enhanced weed species could be very problematic.

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i've read that natural vitamin C is in fact far more effective than synthetic

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You insinuate that the food which has been sprayed is bad for us because chemicals have been used. This 'chemical doused produce' (which is a severe overstatement, because the chemicals are used in low and regulated quantaties) is the same food that has made the genral western population live so long and healthy.

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IMHO you can't quote 'facts' from a book with a title like "The Living Energy Universe". This is all just hypothetical and unfounded psuedo-science.

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what i mentioned was something that was quoted IN the book, from another source unrelated to the authors of the book. i'm certainly not here to defend a couple of psychologists who think their qualified to write about physics. their theories were hokey and wishful in many ways, however the evidence they supplied was quite intrigueing. if i find the actual source of the vitamin C reference i'll post it.


BF

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There are a lot of people now, who get really old and almost never need a doctor visit, until they are old and get cancer.

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yes, however these people were no doubt given a battery of vaccinations as children, preventing some of the most common causes of death.  i have a hard time believing that vaccination, blood transfusion, anti-piretics, vitamin supplements, and antibiotics could take a back seat to oversized produce.  this is something i'll have to research when i get a chance.  please give sources if possible.

in any case, this has been a good debate.  you've argued the status quo without making a fool of yourself (not easy to do )


BF