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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19576479 -

EdibleStereos said:
SneezingPenis said:
EdibleStereos said:
Anybody else think the OP's rambling and obsession with other peoples problems makes him see like a nutter?


Good argument. Well thought out I can tell.



You go and shit on someone who is making a better life for themself.

That speaks enough on its own.


How am I shitting on them? How am I supposed to be able to disagree with modern mental health? Do I need to start ever sentence with "I reckon..."? How are you supposed to talk to people who claim they rode a unicorn in a public forum? Are you supposed to tip toe around the subject and gently let them know that their claim is horse shit?

I am open to thoughtful suggestions. I'm not here to win friends and garner favor. Just here to present an alternate viewpoint. Some people like yourself are undoubtedly going to get irrationally angry and defensive, but that doesn't bother or concern me. My ways might even be considered abrasive but if you can't handle civil discourse over the internet in a mature manner then you should think about crawling back inside a uterus somewhere and trying this whole "life" thing again, because shit gets a lot worse and mean than someone simply disagreeing with you.

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19576654 -

It's because you lack comprehension on mental disease. Sporadic and impulsive thoughts one may have no control over and is triggered by something simple such as walking into a room with strangers could cause irrational overkill panic attack that therapy itself can't always tackle. But combined with medication it can be over came.

We're not just talking about depression but anxiety as well and these are just by products to what is really going on with someone at times, others not. Simple breathing procedures and meditation might not be able to break thought patterns In other situations in this case.

There's are a variety of different experiences one feels and spreads light onto and only after they have gone through therapy for awhile if the therapist believes at a certain point medication may be necessary why not? Your belief is that this medication doesn't work at all and only causes possible suicides which is so wrong. When done under the correct guidelines the prescriber describes the right medication will be found and you'll be off to a better life and after awhile of peace fulness coming off the medication will be up to you.


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Im only aloud to post once an hour. Because 'Sell Your Soul' doesn't like me. so if I am responding to you, that means you are above of the utmost importance

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: Endure]
    #19576783 -

Who are you to say I lack comprehension? Again, conjecture.

So do you believe that therapy and drugs are the only effective course of action? The only solution?

Seems to me that your summation is: sometimes it is one thing and at other times another.

That is not objective. You don't get to say modern mental health science works, and when it doesn't it is due to a completely different reason that doesn't infringe on the efficacy of modern mental health science.

I don't think there is anything wrong with talking it out with a therapist. I actually don't mind the field of psychology because even if it is catastrophically wrong, very little damage can be caused.

Also i never said medication doesn't work. Drugs have effects. Sometimes good, usually bad.

Let me ask you this. If you had a 4 year old who wasn't living up to your expectations of what a 4 year old should be, how many options would you exhaust before giving them amphetamines, or some other severely scheduled drug?

Personally I would start to question my own assessment of the situation before it ever came to giving a child such powerful drugs.

I personally have never met a person who says psychiatry helped them, I am sure ther are some out there, but the amount of time and resources that have been spent on chasing this silly premise should have at the very least resulted in a decline of mental illness right? Not increase.... And especially not increase by such incredible numbers to the point of pandemic.

I honestly urge you to go find these diagnosis rates that increase by 50% every year sometimes.

What has modem mental health given to man? What have we gained from it? Do we have any Better real understanding of how it works compared to 100 years ago? Or at there just more complex theories. There is no meat in this sandwich. All they have is the ends justifying the means. It is like a Christian who blames everything bad on satan and everything good is on God. There is no rational thought there, there is no science or any room for logic.

The numbers do not add up. No study has ever found any cure in the realm of psychiatry, mental illness rates continue to climb, drug sales continue to skyrocket. There is no dimension in which psychiatry has ever had success.

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19577183 -

I know 9 people who have taken medication and of those 6 5 of them noticed a huge improvement with very minor side effects if they had them. Usually the side effects for them is either increase in appetite or sexual decrease in libido. One of them didn't feel anything, but was no where near suicide. I'm not to sure about the rest but when I see them they seem happy and fine.

also, I stated maybe 4 times in two threads you've posted on therapy should be utilized first and only after a reasonable amount of time say 4+ months of trying and going to therapy should one assess his risk vs benefit for medication given he isn't showing improvement.

I've seen people not take medication and go years depressed and still are and can't help it n then I've seen people show markable improvement with negative views on medication so it cancels the placebo out. While who I know personally is small I know I noticed marked improvement myself on Remeron but when taken in conjunction with cymbalta it was a bad idea. But Remeron and cymbalta shouldn't be taken together in the first place so in this case it's the prescribers fault and not the pills themselves.

I'm off remeron because I choose to not participate in medication and try to beat this on my own first but it doesn't mean I don't believe they help I just want to be able to have a few beers without a massive headache now and then


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Im only aloud to post once an hour. Because 'Sell Your Soul' doesn't like me. so if I am responding to you, that means you are above of the utmost importance

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: Endure]
    #19577245 -

/

Edited by Anonymous (12/19/14 09:02 PM)

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #19577258 -

:lolsy:


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Im only aloud to post once an hour. Because 'Sell Your Soul' doesn't like me. so if I am responding to you, that means you are above of the utmost importance

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: Endure]
    #19577784 -

Endure said:
also, I stated maybe 4 times in two threads you've posted on therapy should be utilized first and only after a reasonable amount of time say 4+ months of trying and going to therapy should one assess his risk vs benefit for medication given he isn't showing improvement.


why are you qualified to make these assertions when I am not?

Quote:
I've seen people not take medication and go years depressed and still are and can't help it n then I've seen people show markable improvement with negative views on medication so it cancels the placebo out.


I don't think you fully grasp what a placebo group is. Not taking anything does not equal a placebo group. Not believing in something doesn't make a placebo group.
For example, when people ask me to turn up their monitors on stage, I act like I turn a knob and they eventually give the thumbs up. Everyone does it. Everyone. You start listening better and you believe there to be an increase in decibel level.
Fooling someone into believing something is basically placebo.

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #19577874 -

Johnny Depp said:
You're lying, no one has benefitted from taking drugs ever for any reason.  It's all a scam.  *sarcasm

But for real, drugs can only possibly be useful when it's to kill parasites, or cure your strep throat.  Psyche drugs are completely the opposite.  By taking them you get worse, every time.  *sarcasm

Endure, you've actually been taking a placebo all this time.  Since there was a study once that seemed to show some antidepressants were just as effective as a placebo, it means all ADs are actually placebo.  That's proof.  I don't care what any other studies have shown, or what the problems could have been with the study methods.  That one study is the sole deciding factor for efficacy of ADs forever and ever, amen.  *sarcasm


how many studies have you produced to disqualify the study i provided?

I have never said drugs don't work. In fact, I have stated many times that drugs work.

I am not railing against the consumption of drugs or the seeking of help. My skin in this game is the poisoning of our society, not in literal terms alone. The philosophy of psychiatry and the adherence to its principles are damaging, not merely the drugs.

I don't even deny that drugs can make people better. I think it can be a shortcut. I mean, if you gave a depressed person some mushrooms, I bet they would get off the couch. They might not have a wonderful time, they might have a blast, but drugs work.
What we don't need is a capitalist cabal insisting that we are all mentally ill, that we are not responsible for our own happiness, that we are not responsible for our actions, that we are nothing more than vessels of chemicals with no real free will.

This philosophy of psychiatry is a religion. it is not science. I have no problem with anyone's religion, but when something parades around under the guise of science, we seem to accept it without question. The entire field of psychiatry has been a subversive ploy. If psychiatry was labelled as a religion, everyone would guffaw at it.... even though there is as much efficacy in combating mental illness when compared to religion. http://www.baylorisr.org/wp-content/uploads/levin_religion_mental_health.pdf

good quote I like from that paper

Quote:
Perhaps someday we will look back and wonder how we ever presumed that well-being is unrelated to the workings of the spirit. Just as the relation of mind and body was rejected by biomedicine until the weight of evidence made such a connection tacit, so, too, may the role of spirit become acknowledged fact. If so, not just our research stands to benefit. Our clients and patients will benefit from more directed attention to dimensions of the self that may be sources of both distress and adjustment but that which, until recently, have been overlooked in our professional discourse


oddly enough, psychiatry believes religion to be pathological.

but back to my point... I am not trying to make anyone feel bad for taking drugs.... for shits sake I am doing this on a drug forum. The unflinching acceptance of this psychiatric philosophy is making us all asshats. Between welfare, hyper-litigousness, over-incarceration, and psychiatry we are the joke of the world. Nothing is ever our faults. We aren't fat, we have a glandular problem. My kid isn't stupid, he has ADHD. Your dog bit me and it wasn't my fault for trying to pet it.

It is making an already sick society even more sick.

the other problem with psychiatry taking such a firm root in the status quo is that people forego any other types of treatments. They go straight to the doctor for some pills. It hasn't been a hard sell for psychiatry, we wanted it.... needed it. We wanted someone to tell us it isn't our fault, that everything is just unfair.
it is like weight loss. We are fat, and we don't want to exercise or eat right, especially when there is a magic pill out there to do all the work. Why actually take the time and effort to do something the proper way when there is this shortcut sitting right here?


Edited by SneezingPenis (02/17/14 03:15 AM)

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19579278 -

/

Edited by Anonymous (12/19/14 09:03 PM)

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #19581511 -

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/17/ready-jon-father-so-heartbroken-about-daughter-held-at-hospital-against-his-will-he-just-defied-a-judges-order-to-talk-to-us-i-want-to-have-all-my-guns-blazing/

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19581532 -

that isn't a response to your post. That just came across my media feed and i found it to be relevant to this discussion.

Maybe my next part in the series will be about the ability psychiatry has to steal peoples children and family members from them. On the level of kidnapping.

My mother was once threatened by a social worker that I would be taken away if she didn't put me on Ritalin back in the mid 90's.

people in the care of social workers, such as children and ex-convicts are put on zoloft explicitly, not a generic equivalent. but name brand drugs, which cost the taxpayers approx $350 a prescription per person.

but yeah, I'm probably just being all conspiracy theorist and shit...

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19582084 -

/

Edited by Anonymous (12/19/14 09:03 PM)

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #19582147 -

That's why doctors shouldn't be allowed to just prescribe something. It should be law binding that it should be in conjunction with a therapist for a real diagnose


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Im only aloud to post once an hour. Because 'Sell Your Soul' doesn't like me. so if I am responding to you, that means you are above of the utmost importance

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19582163 -

SneezingPenis said:
Johnny Depp said:
Quote:
Perhaps someday we will look back and wonder how we ever presumed that well-being is unrelated to the workings of the spirit. Just as the relation of mind and body was rejected by biomedicine until the weight of evidence made such a connection tacit, so, too, may the role of spirit become acknowledged fact. If so, not just our research stands to benefit. Our clients and patients will benefit from more directed attention to dimensions of the self that may be sources of both distress and adjustment but that which, until recently, have been overlooked in our professional discourse


oddly enough, psychiatry believes religion to be pathological.







shamanism has the one and only term I need to explain today's society, own mental issues I had to heal on my own, everyone I see's issues

soul loss

stress causes soul loss often, drugs can cause it etc.

hating everything you see and yourself
loving everything you see and every part of yourself , is soul  - how many do you know who feel like this? empowered in their life everyday / complete?

the milder degrees of soul loss is careless about everything you see and careless about yourself(smoking cigs everyday, junk food everyday for years, never going to the doc/taking own health seriously etc.)

with soul loss there is no connection between spirit and body, you never see your body, and you never see the world clearly (only through your thoughts, which worry all the time)

but that aside, I think ADHD might be real and that I might have it myself(or so my doc told me)... never been able to read a book without reading every 5 pages 5+ times, often never managing to finish more than 1-5 pages, can never focus for more than 5mins at a time
and schizophrenia seems pretty real too, know a few with it... (personally I believe in a spiritual cause)
it is just all the other mental illnesses I don't agree with
people with ADHD can still get an education, I got one, but university is where the trouble starts, as it is a lot of reading
never been able to read a whole book fully, yet I have been in school 17 years of my life, I can never read over 5-10 pages at once max :-P
never read a book in my life in my sparetime either, I don't enjoy reading... get bored after 1-5 pages , forgot what I read after ½-1 page always
it's like I got no short term memory, after ½ page I often forgot what I read, no matter what I read, even if it interests me
if I read everything I read 5 times or so I can remember for years, I can just never recall 5-10 pages I just read, failed in high school in my primary language, couldn't remember 5-10 pages at the exam

but I have noticed all those symptoms started getting better after finding myself/meditating/nature
less stress
I still can't motivate myself to read anything though, and I still can't remember 5 pages if I read any book, only if I read 5+ times

if I read 5 pages I can't tell you what they are about, I can remember 10%
but if I smoke weed I can remember 90-100% and read 10x faster, then I can read 50 pages in a row and all books becoem interesting, I just have to read

it's not only books it seems
can never find my socks,creditcard,keys - search every morning for thep ast 15 years for ½-1hr so always late, then it turns out I had the keys on me in my pocket all the time, or remember people's names
if you tell me your name I have forgotten it 3-10 seconds later
no short term memory, but good long term memory, remember 30 digits of pi for 12 years ;-P

Edited by lessismore (02/17/14 11:07 PM)

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: Endure]
    #19582197 -

/

Edited by Anonymous (12/19/14 09:03 PM)

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #19582203 -

mushrooms is the best remidy against depression

they seem to give a chemical relief from depression, and a spiritual relief

the chemical relief is there after the trip for weeks/months if you don't get a bad trip, great mood for weeks/months
(controlable)
only one trip is needed

the spiritual relief is permanent if the patient finds himself/his soul

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: lessismore]
    #19582219 -

mio said:
mushrooms is the best remidy against depression

they seem to give a chemical relief from depression, and a spiritual relief

the chemical relief is there after the trip for weeks/months if you don't get a bad trip, great mood for weeks/months
(controlable)
only one trip is needed

the spiritual relief is permanent if the patient finds himself/his soul


:facepalm:


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Im only aloud to post once an hour. Because 'Sell Your Soul' doesn't like me. so if I am responding to you, that means you are above of the utmost importance

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: Endure]
    #19582975 -

Endure said:
mio said:
mushrooms is the best remidy against depression

they seem to give a chemical relief from depression, and a spiritual relief

the chemical relief is there after the trip for weeks/months if you don't get a bad trip, great mood for weeks/months
(controlable)
only one trip is needed

the spiritual relief is permanent if the patient finds himself/his soul


:facepalm:



why did you facepalm this?

you think mushrooms have nothing to offer mental illness? Is it only new era drugs that work?

Here is another problem... Take for example Johnny's friend. The findings of efficacy studies are entangled in so many ways. When you are dealing with cancer, it isn't like you just get tired of it one day and decide to do something about it. The type of person who is ready to really make a change in their life and start becoming proactive about it (which is the antithesis of being depressed btw) and they start to take a drug in conjunction with this new outlook on life, and get better, how do you attribute it solely to the drug?

With a regular drug trial, say for Psoriasis, the impetus to get off the couch and try to do something about patchy, flaky skin is not going to cure it alone. Some studies have shown that the power of positivity/optimism/laughter etc can have effects on true biological disorders as well as recovery time and a host of other things... but good vibes alone are not going to cure psoriasis. Therefor, the drug trials are not entangled in their own findings.

When you are trying to do a study that involves emotions and thoughts, it is almost impossible for the study itself to not be entangled in the results. The type of person who is diagnosed as depressed, but then agrees to a drug trial is getting some hopeful news most likely, and they have a duty to interact with people, a new purpose. So many new emotions and thoughts pervade those studies that I don't see how you could ever consider something to be a constant in them.

it is like the problem of quantum probability. You can either know the location OR the velocity, never both. Why? because of the uncertainty principle (im not going to start a QM lecture, look it up yourself or wrap your head around the Double Slit experiment)

SO back to the original thought.... why wouldn't mushrooms have a positive effect on what we consider mental health? why wouldn't almost any mood elevating or altering drug have something to offer? if your theory is that these people need these drugs to have a fleeting moment of respite so they can begin to pursue happiness, then why balk at that idea?
I posit that almost every single mood altering/elevating drug would have approximately the same efficacy and outcomes as any psycho-pharmaceutical drug out there. You say that "drugs work on some while not on others" or delve into that nature vs nurture argument to hedge failed effectiveness...

I am willing to bet that if you did a side by side study (my position that these studies are fundamentally flawed still stands, but I am trying to work within the confines of this ridiculous assumption that is modern psychiatry) between psycho-pharmaceutical drug Z and mushrooms you would find similar efficacy. But you wouldn't be able to tell the patients they were taking mushrooms, it would be unfair to mushrooms. Everyone has preconceived ideas about mushrooms, while nobody knows dick about Drug Z.

See how just the slightest thing can become entangled in the findings of these studies involving thought and emotion? There is no land in sight, no concrete, solid focal point in which to measure against. How can you untangle thought and emotion (ethically) from human interaction? Just a mere change in surroundings is enough to entangle findings.

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19582993 -

basically, one of the only ways to go about having a truly scientific and objective study in the realm of thoughts and emotions would be to involve people unknowingly in the study. which would almost always be unethical.

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Re: An alternate theory regarding mental health. Part 1. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19583190 -

Jesus I write one face and I get 6 paragraphs that I'm not reading.

He says mushroom tripping is the best way. I disagree entirely and have seen many people go off the deep end with shrooms. One trip isn't going to balance you out. If anything small small doses is according to studies can be used as sort of a anti depressant


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Im only aloud to post once an hour. Because 'Sell Your Soul' doesn't like me. so if I am responding to you, that means you are above of the utmost importance

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