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Craft vs Art
    #17435512 -

One distinction in creative work that has really begun to bug me is that of Art vs Craft.

Let's think of this from a musical perspective for a moment.
Most people consider music to be a form of art. They don't necessarily equate it to say, making hand-made furniture, but they might compare it to writing, because literature and music are often thrown under the umbrella of art.

However, there are many instances where music is certainly not artistic...
Are TV jingles works of art? I'd dare to say they're not (some will probably disagree).
I'd venture that people being paid to create TV jingles are not artists, but craftsmen (or women).
They create a product to sell, which is similar to say, someone making fairly plain hand-made furniture.

Look at someone such as Aphex Twin however, and you can't call him a craftsman. Why? Because he has a vast and incredibly diverse body of work. I think just about anyone on here can agree with me when I say that Aphex Twin is an artist.

Here's a quote from "Art and Fear" by David Bayles and Ted Orland:

"In essence, art lies embedded in the conceptual leap between pieces, not in the pieces themselves. And simply put, there's a greater conceptual jump from one work of art to the next than from one work of craft to the next. The net result is that art is less polished - but more innovative - than craft. The differences between five Steinway grand pianos - demonstrably works of consummate craftsmanship - are small compared to the differences between the five Beethoven Piano concerto you might perform on those instruments.
A work of craft is typically made to fit a specific template, sometimes a painstakingly difficult template requiring years of hands-on apprenticeship to master. Its staggering to realize that nearly all the truly great violins ever produced were made in the course of a few years by a few artisans living within a few blocks of each other. All this in a remote Italian village, three centuries ago. The accomplishments of Antonio Stradivari and his fellow craftsmen point up one real difference between art and craft: with craft, perfection IS possible."

I used to think the most important thing in my music was to be "professional", or to have music that's comparable to anyone making huge amounts of money touring and DJing around the world. I'm slowly starting to realize that the concept of craft is contradictory to how I like to create though.
I am satisfied with producing material that is far less than perfect, if it is original, creative, and expresses what I want it to.

Do you consider yourself an artist? Or a craftsman? Would you prefer to have 10 perfect, formulaic tracks that everyone likes, or a diverse body of work that challenges your listeners? Thoughts? Am I an idiot?


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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: Sammysong] * 3
    #17435534 -

art without craft is just someone's slop dreams.

To do something so new and unique that skill isn't important is a pretty rare sort of thing.


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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: teamkiller]
    #17435640 -

Wow where to start, this is a vast vast topic!

With a background in the visual arts Iv always had trouble seeing how the Craft Vs Art augment fit into music, as even with the David Bayles quote above the comparison is not music (as craft) vs music (as Art), its a ideas vs a tools....and the argument with music tends to slide much more to notions of hight culture vs low culture....as per your comments about DJs

Let look at Jeff Koons, his art is constructed not by him, but by commissioned craftsman (not exactly a new practice)...but he is very much still the artist, and the craftman are still craftsman.

I build effects pedals for a living, to me this is 100% craft, where as what I use them for is 100% Art.


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WISH LIST = Black Poplar, Enoki, Lion's Mane, Shimeji, Golden Oyster

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: peps1]
    #17435648 -

IMO capitalism is the scourge of art. Everything humans create would be art if not for kitsch.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: teamkiller]
    #17435675 -

teamkiller said:
art without craft is just someone's slop dreams.

To do something so new and unique that skill isn't important is a pretty rare sort of thing.


nailed it.

also BS nailed it too.

everything is art. and everything is craft.

its yin and yang. thinking and doing.


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AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: k00laid]
    #17435724 -

I definitely view musicians as craftsmen.  Writers too.

Quote:
craft
1
: skill in planning, making, or executing : dexterity
2
a : an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill <the carpenter's craft> <the craft of writing plays> <crafts such as pottery, carpentry, and sewing> 



Quote:
art

1 :

skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2
a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : liberal arts
b archaic : learning, scholarship
3
: an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4
a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced
b (1) : fine arts (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art



To me the words are as near to synonyms as I can think of.


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

Edited by Senor_Doobie (12/23/12 06:14 AM)

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #17435748 -

Maybe all art is craft but not all craft is art.

Like circle within a circle


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #17435749 -

BlindSophist said:
IMO capitalism is the scourge of art. Everything humans create would be art if not for kitsch.


What has the economic structure got to do with Art?

Based on your assertion, Communist Russia would have had no defined art moments, yet we see the emergence of Nonconformist, Constructivism, Suprematist movement and so on.


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WISH LIST = Black Poplar, Enoki, Lion's Mane, Shimeji, Golden Oyster

Edited by peps1 (12/23/12 06:26 AM)

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #17435751 -

Senor_Doobie said:
but not all craft is art.



examples or elaboration?


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AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: k00laid]
    #17435768 -

All art requires
Quote:
skill in planning, making, or executing : dexterity



which is the definition of craft.

However art also requires

Quote:
a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced



This is a more specific definition that is not necessarily required of craft.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: k00laid]
    #17435770 -

k00laid said:
Senor_Doobie said:
but not all craft is art.



examples or elaboration?


He can't prove a negative, but to elaborate, there are many craftsman such as joiners that don't consider them self a artist or their work Art....and if you subscribe to Marcel Duchamp's notion of 'the artist hand' if something is Art or not is wholly defined by it's creator.


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WISH LIST = Black Poplar, Enoki, Lion's Mane, Shimeji, Golden Oyster

Edited by peps1 (12/23/12 06:34 AM)

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: peps1]
    #17435775 -

I can prove that a duck is not an elephant.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #17435784 -

Senor_Doobie said:
I can prove that a duck is not an elephant.


neither a duck or a elephant are a negative factor, there is never 'proof' of non-existence such as in the above argument "but not all craft is art".


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WISH LIST = Black Poplar, Enoki, Lion's Mane, Shimeji, Golden Oyster

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #17435806 -

Senor_Doobie said:
This is a more specific definition that is not necessarily required of craft.


language :facepalm: i think pretty much everythang is art.


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AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: peps1]
    #17435811 -

peps1 said:
Senor_Doobie said:
I can prove that a duck is not an elephant.


neither a duck or a elephant are a negative factor, there is never 'proof' of non-existence such as in the above argument "but not all craft is art".


You're completely out of your element here pops.  How about this. 

All cows are mammals.  But not all mammals are cows.  Can that  be proven?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #17435862 -

I appreciate you simplifying thing for me, as I am a little slow.

But, as far as I see it we still run into a few problems when you try and apply Logic as a absolute, logicians don't believe a proposition can be true and untrue at the same time (law of non-contradiction).....yet quantum mechanics disproves the law of non-contradiction (Copenhagen interpretation).


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WISH LIST = Black Poplar, Enoki, Lion's Mane, Shimeji, Golden Oyster

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: Sammysong]
    #17435913 -

I think that all music requires craft but not all music has an element of art.

This assumes a definition of art which might be different to others though.

This thread made me realise "art" is really pretty tricky to define... :strokebeard:

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: Sammysong]
    #17435935 -

i don't think the distinction between art and craft is so black and white. they have to coexist. there is a lot of fine art that has a craft aesthetic but it is still art. when i make art i take a 'crafty' approach but the final result and the concept behind it makes it art. is your grandmother's handmade quilt art or craft? it depends on how you define art. it's more subjective than some snobs make it out to be.


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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: birdland]
    #17435937 -

birdland said:
This thread made me realise "art" is really pretty tricky to define... :strokebeard:


Depends on who dose the defining.....its remarkably easy if you let just the Artist dictate if their work is Art, complication only enters the equation when the critics/observers are given the task.

IMHO only rating a work "good art" or "bad art" is subjective.


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WISH LIST = Black Poplar, Enoki, Lion's Mane, Shimeji, Golden Oyster

Edited by peps1 (12/23/12 08:27 AM)

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Re: Craft vs Art [Re: Sammysong]
    #17436673 -

I dunno. To me an art is something you create for purely aesthetic reasons, like a picture you hang on the wall or the like, whereas a craft would actually be used, like a quilt or an embroidered shirt.

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