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 imachavel I loved and lost but I loved-ftw     Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 33,259 Loc: You get banned for saying that 
Last seen: 4 hours, 23 minutes |
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Ok so you are walking through a parking lot somewhere, lets say a Costco, and a car drives by through the parking lot at 65 mph, and almost hits you. He swerves and misses, but in this situation you saw him coming, and tried to run out of the way, but stepped in a pot hole, tripped, and flew sideways into a parked car, twisted around, hit your back on your spine, paralysed yourself, or just about. You dont need a calostomy bag, but you at times lose feeling in your legs and need a wheel chair, and the rest of the time need a walker, cant exercise, and are in immense pain. You had a minimum wage job before the accident, so couldnt afford health care, and now that you cant perform rigorous tasks anymore, you are unable to get a job and work ever again. You try suing the driver of the car that made you jump out of the way into the pot hole, but since his car never touched you, he is not held responsible. You try suing Costco over the pot hole but when they are found responsible their settlement claim is some shitty 60k not nearly enough to cover hundreds of thousands of doctors bills and surgery etc. You have no way to move, get a job, pay for surgery, or anything.
In this situation, wouldnt the Obama care plan be the most ideal thing? And be very beneficial? --------------------  I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
 I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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 Le_Canard The Duk Abides  Registered: 05/17/03 Posts: 94,392 Loc: Earthfarm 1
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Seems to me it would. Of course, if he was flat broke with no tangible assets, he'd qualify for Medicaid in his state regardless of Obamacare.
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imachavel I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 33,259 Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 4 hours, 23 minutes |
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with Medicaid don't you have to pay 20%
-------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Vaipen Psychonaut Registered: 01/15/12 Posts: 782 Loc: Europe |
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20%?!? How is that aid.
2013's own risk is €350,- in The Netherlands. I think this year it was €255,- SO all I pay will be 350,- plus some contribution for some specific medications and treatments. It does depend on your health insurance. They come in flavors here. A base insurance and you can get extra's for better coverage and dental. Dental is a separate insurance usually. So you pick between everything paid for equals a higher premium or a lower premium and you have to pay a percentage of the treatment you get. The idea of what you guys call Obamacare is that society as a whole accepts responsibility for individual who cannot be expected to cough up tens of thousands the way society and economy works in this day and age. So they limit what can be asked of you to pay. Oh my god it reeks of communism :-) Socialism being just a tad worse, right? Just think that not all that long ago we had a system where you had to be privately insured when you earned above a set income and below it you had a collective insurance. Then we looked at the free market model of the usa and somehow that was glorified. They introduced the system I described, shop around for an insurer, compare the difficult to read or comprehend coverage and gamble. But we combined the socialist tradition with open market thinking. Now prices are rising tremendously. People are greedy. Specialists earn too much I think. And society pay their BMW. Now there is constant tension between the insurance companies and the medical profession. If they could the insurer would give doctors a wide seat behind their desk, so they can park their greedy ass next to them and co-decide what a patient needs. Which of course is not what we want. The idea anyway that free open market models drive the costs down has been proven an illusion. Even the national railways went downhill after they were privatized. This has happens all the time. A little Obamacare or socialism would benefit americans.
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imachavel I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 33,259 Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 4 hours, 23 minutes |
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what model do you base the idea that socialism works better then the free market model? Sure, the free market's success is based more on the default value, that by default our model is more successful then other models because ours simply SUCKS LESS But you fail to see that it's true, by default, the free market model works better then socialism. The price of health care and the premiums required to run it won't go down or up because of Obama care, it will simply change who pays for it. And if the government can't pay for it the way I think they can't, because of super huge deficit spending, then it will be garbage, it will be a half payed plan, raising everyone's taxes, and giving the person who receives it the lowest possible quality health care you can possibly receive. Emergency rooms will see LONGER lines not SHORTER lines. What basis do you have that socialism works better then a democratic Republic? In fact it's funny to me how similar Democracy and socialism both work, on the basis of an individual succeeding and not slowing down the entire system because someone else fails. Although I generally favour communist approaches that if one succeeds everyone succeeds I don't think it's ever been proven to work, and socialism itself fails quite often because of left sided approaches that could be thrown out. Does socialism have benefits over our system of government? Certainly Europe has very little poverty. It also has high taxes, very high unemployment, very crowded living conditions with people mashed together and even country side that is pretty damn populated. It's basically a bland society, not too much success, not too much failure. Of course the crime and poverty in Europe looks like Disney land and make the U.S. look like a prison riot by comparison. But what of your failing job rate? Socialism has no less right to call failure on someone else's government -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Vaipen Psychonaut Registered: 01/15/12 Posts: 782 Loc: Europe |
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I am not saying that socialism works better. And we have free markets here you know... We invented the Polder Model. That worked for a long time until some years ago, when politics decided they didn't need the unions and employer organizations. Now they are back around the table again because all social partners need each other to battle this crisis.
I don't know what "left sided approaches" are. High taxes are not bad if it means that the least among us gets decent health care without going bankrupt. I met an american who had to get a second mortgage on his house for heart surgery. On tv, 4 years ago, was a woman in Canton Ohio who, camera present incidentally, got the hospital bill, also for heart problems. It was $30.000,- or so, on top of earlier bills. They were bankrupt, had to sell the house and move in with their children. Four years later they could barely afford their new apartment and either he had to squeeze in a few more hours after his night job or she would have to get work as well. These people are modern slaves. When asked if she would vote for Obama and his health care plans, she hesitated. Probably she would because the alernative was so much worse. Barely four years ago she voted Obama and went bankrupt. Now she complained about the monthly cost that this new insurance would cost and how they might not be able to afford it. She looked much older, in her 60 I think she was. And her heart isn't going to be better. Does she want to be bankrupt again? It seems to me that the systemic and deeply held suspicion of that tiniest bit of shared responsibility in society is stronger than her ability to look at her own situation. The ONLY reason she had a new home with her husband was because an anonymous donor paid the tens of thousands, as she explained, this was done by one of those people who apparently do such things, go to a hospital and pay someones bill, out of the goodness of their hearts I suppose. Alms for the poor. To rely on that seems best replaced by a system that allows all to have a break. I felt sympathy for the woman four years ago. Someone saw her on tv I guess and decided to pay the bills. What an extraordinary luck, to be interviewed by Dutch tv. But when I saw her again before the election and she stated her opinion, I could only think of her next heart attack and how that would burden her husband and her kids. What a society. At least that story doesn't happen here. So I am happy to pay high taxes. "Where did this idea come from that everybody deserves free education, free medical care, free whatever? It comes from Moscow, from Russia. It comes straight out of the pit of hell." -- Texas State Representative Debbie Riddle of Houston Edited by Vaipen (12/20/12 02:20 PM)
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Haffenreffer Strangererer Registered: 09/17/12 Posts: 147 Last seen: 13 years, 8 months |
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It costs less to administer preventative care than it does to treat cancer, heart disease, diabetes, high cholesterol, ect. That's the bigger problem, not freak debilitating accidents. At that, a comprehensive health care system would be more effective. I don't think you can measure the positive effects of a healthcare system by what it happens to its outliers.
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imachavel I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 33,259 Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 4 hours, 23 minutes |
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I agree. This is why Zappa argues so much that people are dumb enough to have 4 kids who can't pay for it. My grandmother and grandfather had 5 kids, put each one through college, and my grandfather had 3 heart attacks, hip replacement surgery, my grandmother had breast surgery twice, and ended up being paralysed from a disease known as multiple sclerosis and couldn't move and spent the next half of her life in a hospital before she died. Neither had money problems, and neither ever had a college degree.
There is always more to the story then what's on the front page. Always. And honestly you speak of bankruptcy as though it only applies to the recipient of health care plans paid in a socialistic fashion. What about the government frame work and the tax payer who is paying for all this? Do they go broke if people don't take care of them self and need health care? Bankruptcy is not a better solution any more for the provider then it is for the recipient. Thinking so will always get you in arguments with extreme right sided people like Zappa. And you know what? He's right -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Vaipen Psychonaut Registered: 01/15/12 Posts: 782 Loc: Europe |
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All I see is this hatred by americans for taxation.
"The hatred Americans have for their own government is pathological ... at one level it is simply thwarted greed: since our religion is making a buck, giving a part of that buck to any government is an act against nature." -- Gore Vidal You talk about ones' own responsibility, to stay healthy in this case. Self reliance is a Big Thing in the usa. Maybe a form of pride comes out of it. That may be so, but even healthy people can get an illness. And yes, becoming ill is not anyone's fault, not any individual in society can be pointed at and be held responsible. But what are mushrooms, what are psychedelics for if they cannot instill a sense of community, of shared responsibility. There is a schism between political opinion, views on capitalism, socialism and methods of government on one side and the sense you get from the psychedelic experience. We are all together on Earth, sharing the same unbearable lightness of being. How can you have no heart for those afflicted with disease based on a political ideology? In my country there is an increasing focus by health insurance companies on staying fit. You may get a lower premium if you go to a exercise centre. The problem this woman in Ohio had with Obamacare was the possible high cost. Well, then you have to make different choices in your spending. You could find a place with lower rent, or get a small car. One of the problems in america is, is that healthy food is expensive and bad supermarket junk causes health problems. And diabetes is big in the usa. So much for self reliance and responsibility. There has to be a balance between the needs of the many and the needs of the few. I wonder how many people die needlessly in the usa. Another american I once knew and visited told me about his sister. She didn't have health insurance because she could not afford it with her income. So much for self reliance, again. Self reliance is a nice theory but it works best for those with higher incomes. She got pneumonia. It was bad enough for her to fall down in the street where she got picked up by an ambulance, so she could be taken to the emergency room and get a bottle of free pills. Has she called the hospital they'd have given her the middle finger. It reminds me also of another story my friend told me. He was a fireman and a co-worker died falling down a ladeer because he was too fat to se e his feet properly. Apparently there were no real standards of minimum requirements to be a fireman. I see this as an aspect of the same resitance to government interference that people like Ron Paul dislike so much. But how can you be an effective fireman if there are no rules on worker safety. And that again connects up to the lack of power in unions, who could help set safety regulations. That fireman should never have been up that ladder as he should have been subject to yearly evaluation. Government 'interference' is not always a bad thing.
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imachavel I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 33,259 Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 4 hours, 23 minutes |
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listen, I'm not against people getting treatment for illness. It's not like that at all. But I once got pneumonia, it wasn't fun, I had bronchitis for 3 months, then it turned into pneumonia. It wasn't during winter either, it was during summer in a state of extreme humidity in a tropical area. I thought I was fucking dying I couldn't stop coughing and I couldn't feel my body temperature. But I didn't want to go to a hospital because I hate hospitals. So I went to a doctor and they did some tests, gave me anti biotics and my symptoms went away, and I got better, I had an inhaler and a bunch of stuff.
I thought my health insurance covered it, but apparently my policy expired right before I went to the doctors. You know what the cost was, total? It was only $650 with the anti biotics and everything. REALLY not a big deal. One of my first jobs offered health benefits. Who was this lady that she had 4 kids and didn't have a decent enough job that she could pay for her own health care? I'm sorry, but there is often MUCH more to the story then people say. And often times people with serious diseases see a doctor quite a few times in their life before they end up in the hospital, and are told that a life style choice needs to be made. Many people have pre existing conditions. Now am I AGAINST people getting treated for their disease? No. But this administration has not been able to pass a single budget in years. Let me say this again THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO PASS A BUDGET IN YEARS What do we do now? We create a national health care plan and treat tons of people that are sick that can't afford to treat them self? And we can't pay for it? What type of treatment are people going to get, when an affordable government health care act, is so fucking cheap, that getting treatment from that national health insurance plan, turns local hospitals into the VA? Have you seen the way patients at the VA get treated? I have. It's a sham, they get operated on by interns, the hospital looks like a soup kitchen. The doctors okay, but let me tell you, IF YOU WANT GOOD TREATMENT AT THE VA YOU NEED TO ALREADY HAVE A DECENT HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN And if you go to the hospital from a VA, man they will treat you like you are homeless when you get there. Most people who stay with the VA long enough end up filing a law suit. Who can say that Obama care is much different? It seems many people have already gone over it, and decided that the plan is un fund able in our current state of recession. We are major crisis, and now a bill is proposed that will rape the savings from our treasury and increase the deficit spending even more so. Would you willingly pay for insurance through a company that already admitted that your payment wouldn't cover your plan? Or allow a member ship like Aflac to find you a cheap insurance plan that didn't cover you? Now you file a claim, it's USELESS! How is this scenario any different??!??!? Why in the world are people depending on this Obama care plan??!!!!!!!!? WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU BASE THAT THIS WILL ACTUALLY HELP ANYONE?!?!? Of course there will always be a scenario that shows that one individual benefited from a plan although the THOUSANDS of other scenarios that destroy peoples lives with small business taxes for the affordable health care plan may not exist in public the way the single help scenario will. There is nothing I can do to stop this health care act. I guess it will come true, and the treatment and care you claim people will get provided will be provided. And if I'm wrong then I'm wrong. But if I'm not wrong then what say ye? -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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zappaisgod horrid asshole  Registered: 02/11/04 Posts: 81,741 Loc: Fractallife's gy Last seen: 10 years, 5 months |
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Americans are rather individualistic, or at least used to be. Not so much any more. We used to value property rights as essential. I'm keeping myself ready for the pitchfork and Kristall smashing 47%, myself. Of course government interference isn't always a bad thing. Just usually. The fat fireman made a personal decision. Oh well. You write;
Well duh. Do you think there is anything else that pride should come from other than one's own achievement and ability? We also have had vastly different psychedelic experiences, you and I. -------------------- 
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Vaipen Psychonaut Registered: 01/15/12 Posts: 782 Loc: Europe |
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How can one treat themselves? Especially if in the open health market a specialist asks enormous amounts per hour. Here this is restricted. So yes, if you want to implement Obamacare, you have to limit how much health care professionals may earn. And since we talk about americans, they will never agree to that. So you are basically doomed to be greedy and selfish because it is better to point a finger at someone not taking care of themselves than to accept shared responsibility. It is rather funny to me how the very reason why this situation is so bad is because of your base paradigms.
Well, that is why we have government regulations and minimum requirements. In my country there is no secondary health care. There is one health care for all, rich or poor and it is among the best in the world. We do not compromise on health care. If your society gives bad health care based on how rich you are...then you tell me what sort of people you are in your heart of hearts.
My country but most European countries offer a model of how things can be. Only the usa is really off with its health care system and like I said, it is based on your base paradigms. For it to work you have to grow a heart. But you let yourself be ruled by a fear of socialist values, even if some of it might actually help. And you know what, despite our socialist tendencies, we aren't doing all that bad here. I have many issues with my society and many things are wrong. But if I look at america...no thanks, not my kinda morality.
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imachavel I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 33,259 Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 4 hours, 23 minutes |
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In my heart of hearts? Listen, I have no fear of socialism or moral problems. My morals are nice and narrow, and my heart says this: why should I pay for someone else s health care when they won't give me a job and pay for a roof over my head and my food? Why should I give a shit about someone else medical bills when they don't care if I starve to death? Why should people be provided when they provide for no one? It's almost surely cheaper to pay a yearly health care plan then it is to pay for a years worth of living expenses and food and actual health treatment which is a warm bed and good food with vitamins and time to exercise. Is a person who can't provide a job and can't pay for their own health care worthy of having their health paid with thousands of other taxes? I think not. No offence, but this comes straight from the heart, and I couldn't be more serious
-------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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imachavel I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 33,259 Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 4 hours, 23 minutes |
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perhaps your morality far exceeds ours, but I doubt it's because of socialistic health care -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Vaipen Psychonaut Registered: 01/15/12 Posts: 782 Loc: Europe |
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Well, maybe that could be a possible conclusion, that some societies have better morals than others. For don't we agree that western society as a whole is inferior, so almost a moot point to compare socialist societies with pure capitalist laissez fair societies.
In any case, all societies have built-in dangers. E.g., in my society there is a dramatic trend to loss of privacy and autonomy. My government wishes to know everything about me in an attempt perhaps to micro-control society, out of a hyped up fake fear of terror (thanks for that, america with your false flag 11-9-01 operation), out of a fear for child pornography, all excuses to implement new laws and regulations that erode civil liberties and privacy. Then again, same issue in the usa I think? But maybe for other reasons over there, you tell me. Here it is because governments spends a lot on social programs, so they want to make sure fraud is kept to a minimum. So they feel justified in profiling you as much as they can. There is no perfect system but I prefer a tendency to socialism rather than the the idea that solidarity and altruism is bad for you. If I read your posts "why should I pay for.." it just confronts me as egocentric and 'me me me and god for us all'. Why do I send money to a Greek friend. Maybe he did nothing for me than be a pal. But he has not had his paycheck for 5 months. I don't have to do it. But he needs a break. I don't think you get what lies behind it all. You value money too much if you look at your society and fellow man and exclaim you do not wish any of them to be helped with your 'precious'. And so mushroom use does not make you a better person at all does it? For you it is no paradigm changing substance. When you come out of it you come out of it with the exact same morality and values as you went in with. That amazes me and makes me think that maybe McKenna was wrong about the idea that the mushroom dissolves boundaries. It doesn't dissolve your resolve to believe that solidarity between people is somehow conflicting with the way the world should be like. And I am very much convinced that nature is not tooth and claw and each for his own but is in fact a complex organisation based on sharing resources to benefit all who can find a place to live and in the extreme of that sharing there is symbiosis. The point being that the whole concept you word so well that self-interest is enlightened and that sharing is against nature. So why should you pay for someones health care, that is e.g. you pay $250,- a month for health care, divided over 300 million americans = 8,333333333333333333333333333333 Al I hear is a hurt puppy, they aren't nice to me so I won't be nice back. The whole idea being that to give you something, I demand something back too. For my contribution I demand to be repaid. Demands demands demands. I cannot blame you, you have been deeply indoctrinated from birth by your parents, education and peer groups to believe that terrible myth. If you can go into the trance and come out the same way, like McKenna used to say 'you are doing it wrong'. Edit: I wanted to add that it is obvious that people in america do not want to live in your mindset. Like I told you, this Ohio woman had her medical bills paid for by a good samaritan, I kn ow many americans who collect their old clothes and contribute to a homeless shelter. I know a woman who made jam from some berries in her garden and she gives many of those pots to a shelter. There are people who raise money for a hospital wing. So overall people do want to give something to those in need or who cannot afford 'it'. So while society as a whole holds the paradigm of self interest first and screw you if you wanna touch my buck, this seems unsatisfying to many people, who then go out and donate or do voluntary work with poor people or the homeless. Edited by Vaipen (12/24/12 05:16 AM)
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Phred Fred's son  Registered: 10/19/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 11 years, 9 months |
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You ignore the fundamental difference here - you are choosing to send your money, you are not being forced to. And you are sending it to a friend, someone you know and like, not some random stranger who might be a wife beater or pedophile for all you know.
No, we get it better than you do. It is you who doesn't get what lies behind it all - productive human effort. There is no such thing as valuing money too much, since money is nothing more than concretized human effort. And that's the only thing that keeps us all going: productive human effort. Human existence depends on productive human effort. That is not an opinion, it is a fact. The most fundamental truth of all. All that is left to decide is: People who understand the importance of freedom say: "My existence should be supported by my effort." Socialists say: "My existence should be supported by someone else's effort."
Contrary to what governments tell you, using mushrooms doesn't make you stupid. Mushrooms don't make it impossible to apprehend reality. And the reality is that human existence is dependent on productive human effort. That immutable fact remains true regardless of how many times I trip on mushrooms.
Untrue. I have no doubt that some socialists after tripping realize the nature of reality and become respecters of freedom.
"Solidarity". What a typical socialist meaningless slippery buzzword that can be defined however they feel. What socialists mean by "solidarity" is - "roll over and let the majority push you around however they decide to".
The best way to manage those resources is through a free market. Socialism is the absolute worst possible way to manage resources. See history for proof of that.
Why should I pay for someone's food? Why should I pay for someone's housing? Why should I pay for someone's clothing? Lack of any of those three will kill you a whole hell of a lot faster than lack of access to someone with a licence to practice medicine. Logic therefore tells us that if we are really supposed to "care" for our neighbours we should be providing them food before medical care. We should be providing them housing before medical care. We should be providing them clothing before medical care.
And what do these incidents tell you? How is it you can not only read about these incidents and countless others which occur routinely in the US but are much, MUCH more rare in socialist societies, but repeat them back to us without grasping how it completely undermines your whole advertisement for socialism? If people are genuinely willing to voluntarily help out others in need (and history shows they are) then there is no justification for seizing their stuff from them by force against their will. Phred -------------------- 
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imachavel I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 33,259 Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 4 hours, 23 minutes |
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ok so apparently
a) I'm not a man of charity b) mushrooms did not enlighten me and c) because Americans believe in return for their generosity, my un socialistic view that claims that I'm only obsessed with "myself" will not allow me to believe in a failed health care policy plan, because beyond my greed I understand, that I will not fail. Hey, who am I to question you, but just for the hell of it, do you not understand that without a large pocket charity is useless? I don't have a lot of money. Do you understand if I need surgery and I go in to a hospital and all Obama care covers is for interns to operate on me I will probably die? Are you saying in your socialist society that Europe cares a lot more about it's citizens then in a democratic country? What about Australia? They aren't socialist, they're GDP is like 10% stronger then Europe's socialist GDP http://answers.yahoo.com/questio what's better? a coalition or a fake democracy? In fact our governments are not so different. Our government taxes the rich 35%, yours taxes them 60%. The government then divvies out to all the populous benefits provided by the government, creating bums. Yours does the same, creating bums. But at least in our government if the feds didn't step in every 5 seconds to stifle up everything and rape the income tax to fund billion dollar wars we'd have state run plans, which would be glorious since our state taxes pay for almost all our real government services anyway. We have individual plans that are taken away by big government bureaucracy, it's why the unemployment in North Dakota right now is only 3% while the rest of the nation it's at 8%. But can the same be said for Europe? I thought freedom was being able to work and provide for yourself, not dictating which government agency takes from one group to provide for everyone else. I thought freedom would say "you can work so hard, and pay for ALL your own supplies, housing expenses, medical expenses, food, education, etc." Not: "well in my country the government takes from everyone else but the bums here get more then the welfare recipients in another country" Does that make me heartless? I believe in independence. So did Buddha, believe it or not, the real Buddha said "provide for yourself, find your own path, learn your own way, understand your own lessons" Lao Tzu - "give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime" -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
Edited by imachavel (12/24/12 12:38 PM)
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Vaipen Psychonaut Registered: 01/15/12 Posts: 782 Loc: Europe |
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Auto-SummaryThe post discusses the nature of solidarity, the value of productive human effort, and the role of government in supporting individuals. It argues that while people may choose to help others voluntarily, government intervention is not necessary or justified. The post also touches on income inequality, the importance of free markets, and the potential consequences of environmental destruction. The author criticizes socialism and advocates for a more individualistic approach to social issues.
You know, if you use that as an argument you disqualify yourself automatically from any discussion. But what I meant was that solidarity between people is a good thing. You may live in a scary world with pedophiles skulking about but that is not where I live.
Okay, strange notion coming from the Land of the Greed. :-) That Ohio woman complained about Obamacare and would only reluctantly vote Obama because of the high monthly cost. I know one thing from my american contacts. As a worker you do not have all that much protection. Wages are low, there is a social class called the 'working poor'. Not all employers offer any health care plan. Unions? Don't make me laugh. I have never heard anything positive about unions. So all in all, you get fired as soon as the economy goes on its ass but true, you may be hired quickly too if the economy picks up. So if productive human effort is any measuring tool for wealth, what does this mean: http://econfix.wordpress.com/201 Do these people work harder than someone along a conveyor belt? Income inequality is the highest in the usa among English speaking countries. How much more effort do you so carelessly demand of people with 2 jobs?
Shouting is not required nor does it make you more right. I do not concur with your premise. I do not regard myself as being only useful to society if I work and pay taxes. You may call it a fact but I see no proof.
Who said that? You put it as a quote, so someone said that, so who?
You give noa rguments to support what you say so I won't bother going into it.
"Solidarity". What a typical socialist meaningless slippery buzzword that can be defined however they feel. What socialists mean by "solidarity" is - "roll over and let the majority push you around however they decide to". No the truth comes out. But solidarity is based in nature. Whilst your ideology is based on dominator culture.
The best way to manage those resources is through a free market. Socialism is the absolute worst possible way to manage resources. See history for proof of that. The worst way to manage resources is through a free market. Look around kid. Our climate is changing under our violence against nature and it is based on hyper-consumption of products on free markets. Species are endangered left and right, or dying out under our mournful watch. I am not sure what planet you live on but helloooo! This is Earth calling? Leave Atlantis and come back to Earth?
Very pragmatic but also quite communist. I am not sure if that would work. There is something to be said for limiting how we consume the Earth to bits. MvKenna once said he could not see us contrinue our culture for another 1000 years, or even 100 years if you ask me. What would you have us do then? What is your solution to the destruction of our environment, global warming, rampaging resource extraction. Free markets for another 1000 years? Or 100 years?
And what do these incidents tell you? How is it you can not only read about these incidents and countless others which occur routinely in the US but are much, MUCH more rare in socialist societies, but repeat them back to us without grasping how it completely undermines your whole advertisement for socialism? I don't advertise socialism. But you are writing in a way that pushes me into a more defensive posture. I could say you are defending your free market ideology. And you are wrong of course. Because we have food banks too you know, where poor people can go for a crate with some foodstuffs. We too have shops for minima and second hand places for furniture and so on for those without much of a budget. The whole notion that americans are great alms for the poor givers compared to other nations is something we have to abandon. The idea that free market states somehow breed more noble people is ridiculous. I know the guy who in my city set up a shop for minima. Well, maybe in your country you would not need so many of such places if you stopped spending so much on war. Like Ron Paul suggests. Hundreds of billions could be spend on Obamacare and no one would suffer a second mortgage on their house of a bankruptcy.
Against their will? But polls indicate that a majority of my fellow countrypeople want socialism. It is not against their will. So even there you got it wrong. Of course we have those such as you here, who want to abandon it all and go pretend we are america on the Rhine :-)
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Vaipen Psychonaut Registered: 01/15/12 Posts: 782 Loc: Europe |
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Auto-SummaryThe post discusses the author's skepticism towards socialized healthcare, arguing that it is not true generosity if there is a return expected. The author also criticizes the reliance on government assistance and emphasizes personal independence and self-reliance. They express concern about the potential failure of a socialized healthcare system and question the effectiveness of such a system in other countries. The author also criticizes the use of government intervention and taxation, comparing it to a "fake democracy." They conclude by expressing their belief in the importance of individual responsibility and self-reliance, referencing the teachings of Buddha and Lao Tzu.
It is not generosity if you want a return on it. And that would, indeed, point to being concerned with yourself in the way of what you would gain for yourself. I don't see a failed plan yet since it is not yet implemented. But given teh resistance to it I have no doubt there are already all kinds of NGO's, think tanks and interest groups planning to undermine it at each step. And then later they can triumphnatly exclaim: 'See? It was a bad idea.'
Who is to blame for that? You should get a second job. Self reliance mister. You don't need no Obamacare. Well, if you work 2 jobs you might get a heart attack because of stress. THEN you would need it... Or go bankrupt or lose all your savings. Who do you blame then? Or maybe you should ask your boss to give you a higher wage. Careful with the door when he laughs you out of the office. Maybe you go to the Union :-) Or maybe you demand health care coverage through the firm you work for?
Don't be so...so... omg man. What a dangerous country you live in that surgeons will perform surgery on you and then let you die because Obamacare offers only so much. But what do you do without Obamacare when that surgery comes? You might not even get it. What a lame scare mongering tactic. I do not believe a word you are saying. The URL is useless, the questionw as deleted because it broke some rule. Prolly it was the same fake scare mongering.
Can you give me statistical comparison of that claim because I don't see so many bums here. In fact, I bet that proportionally the usa has more bums, whatever a 'bum' is, so we should get a definition on 'bum' first before you give me links to statistical comparisons. Why? Because of what I already explained. You DO NOT get ANYthing from government here unless you provide all the relevant information pertaining to whatever you want, like a subsidy for housing or a reduction on water taxes or whatever. Exactly because we don't want leeches there is a strict control on these things.
I don't understand what you are saying here. In Europe we don't fund billion dollar wars...
Red herring. I doubt we have more bums proportionally and since it is your argument you are to prove it. Also, freedom, to me, is not at all related to work. There are other ways to contribute something positive to society. Also, will you pay attention to your use of quotation marks? No one said what you quoted and people might overlook the fact I never said that and so you put those words into my mouth, more or less. If you want to use that type of construction ( I don't know what it is called in English) please use apostrophes.
I don't know the context of what the Buddha said. And our education system is pretty good here in Socialist Land. Though it could be better still.
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imachavel I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 33,259 Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 4 hours, 23 minutes |
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Auto-SummaryThe post discusses various perspectives on charity, healthcare policies, and the differences between American and European societies. Key points include the notion that true charity requires no return, the potential failure of healthcare plans due to resistance, and the belief that self-reliance is essential. The post also touches on the role of government in providing benefits and the perceived differences in societal values between the U.S. and Europe.
Ok, first of all, I've never had a job that I couldn't put a portion of my pay into health benefits. I simply speak to the manager and ask to be given a document that I sign that says a certain amount of my pay is not taxed and put into my plan. At a restaurant I had this option. Second, I do not give without asking for a return? Your god damn right. I have nothing to give. If I FIND something to give I want a fucking return on it. At least something small. Do you understand how business works? A dollar store is a business where a person buys many products for .50 then sells them for a dollar. You call it a commission? I call it paying the overhead. Btw you realize that you have your social system of government there in Europe because every time some sick fuck like Hitler or Bin Laden comes in to just DESTROY you and you can't fend for yourself, we come in and just SAVE YOUR ASS!! and you have the tenacity to fucking call us selfish? Why is your unemployment rate higher then ours? Why has most of your bail outs been given by high ranking members of other countries such as Obama? If Obama didn't bail you out, he probably ended up bailing out another country that bailed you out. You call yourself less selfish then the U.S.? You DONATE? No, someone comes in and forces you to pay taxes, and someone else gets it, and you call it charity. Your charity is trying to stop our government from being a republic and turn it into the same socialistic shit as your country. Then when the U.S. isn't the greatest country in the world anymore, and we don't come in and wipe your ass with the reason you even have supply and demand, you will CRY FOR DEMOCRACY  @selfish. I spend my life trying to stick up for the sore losers like you, and you have the nerve to call me selfish. Your lucky you aren't arguing Zappa, he'd be wiping the floor with you right now. And I should add this:http://townhall.com/columnists/j what you have is a card board system with a brick wall in front. In our brown stones you see hard wood floors, and nice furniture. You live in a paper machete society where each person has just what they need. Food, health care, whatever they want. Never more. This is europe http://www.spiegel.de/internatio these people all live in decent houses no? Why so mad? Is it because Europe hides it's poor in middle class dormitories? Here in the U.S. there is no falsity, our rich drive Ferrari’s and Audi’s, made by the rich in your country, and sold here, to power your economy. Our poor look god damn poor. Our rich look rich. Europe looks like San Francisco. I'd assume San Francisco though, is MUCH nicer then Europe. Over here a person works hard and has a nice house and everything in return, instead of waiting for the government to tax them then give everything back in a government service, here we have section 8 housing. There your section 8 is something else, and probably nicer. One thing that makes the U.S. different then Europe? Example: U.S. is controlled by Jews, here we hate them, and ask why they take all the money Europe is controlled by Jews. But there, you say "our country is better then yours, our Jews are generous" meanwhile, a fanatic decides to off every single "generous" Jewish Citizen, and good ol Uncle Sam comes in to whup the guys ass, give freedom to your dying Jews, and let you wine and cry and burn our American flag. Thanks a lot, you chardonnay socialists 
-------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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