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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: question for the socialists... [Re: GazzBut]
    #2374790 - 02/24/04 04:34 AM (20 years, 28 days ago)

GazzBut writes:

Mush believes that humans have inalienable rights.

As did many Enlightenment era philosophers and the Founding Fathers of the United States of America. As do many people alive today, myself included.

All I am saying is that the only rights we have are those granted by others. We do not have any rights that arise purely through being human.

Presumably these "others" are also human. Therefore, they can have no rights that arise purely through being human. If they have no rights, how can they transfer these rights to other humans? It makes no sense.

Its not that hard is it?

It's not that it's hard, it's that it's logically impossible.

Your position is ludicrous. According to you, one human (Colin) alone on an island has no rights -- until a second human (Nigel) washes ashore, after which there are only four possibilities:

a) Colin and Nigel each magically gain rights
b) Colin gains rights but Nigel doesn't
c) Nigel gains rights but Colin doesn't
d) Neither have rights

Let's look at the alternatives more closely.

a) If both now have rights, the only logical source of those rights is each other. How is it that Colin, who before Nigel's arrival possessed no rights, now has rights he can bestow upon Nigel?

b) If Colin gains rights but Nigel doesn't, the only logical reasons for this disparity is that Colin is stronger than Nigel and can do anything he wishes to him due to Nigel's weakness. Might makes right.

c) Same above, but with the names reversed.

d) If both remain without rights, then your premise of rights being bestowed by groups is false, since we now have a group, but no rights.

Moving on...

Three more humans wash ashore (Bruce, Penelope, and Sarah) and proclaim that the new trio has rights, but that Colin and Nigel no longer do. Might makes right.

Do you believe we posess inalienable rights?

Certainly.

f so what are they?

There is just one fundamental right -- a human's right to his/her own life. All other rights are corollaries.

Every human has the right to take the actions he judges necessary to further his own existence. With that right comes the obligation to refrain from preventing another human from taking the actions she judges necessary to further her own existence.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: question for the socialists... [Re: Phred]
    #2374799 - 02/24/04 04:45 AM (20 years, 28 days ago)

How can I explain this really simply....

first lets take a definition of "rights" so we are agreed upon what we are talking about. How about "Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition, or nature." (from dictionary.com)

That suit you?

Now, I am saying that a human has no inalienable rights which are granted by nature. I am saying the only rights a person can have are those granted by law or tradition. Get it?


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Always Smi2le

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: question for the socialists... [Re: GazzBut]
    #2374855 - 02/24/04 05:37 AM (20 years, 28 days ago)

GazzBut writes:

first lets take a definition of "rights" so we are agreed upon what we are talking about. How about "Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition, or nature." (from dictionary.com)

That suit you?


Sure. It confirms what mushmaster and I have been saying all along. A right "is something due to a person... by nature".

Every human, by his nature, possesses rights. Whether other humans acknowledge these rights doesn't alter the fact that they have rights.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: question for the socialists... [Re: Phred]
    #2374955 - 02/24/04 06:36 AM (20 years, 28 days ago)

Ok So I am saying no rights are given by nature. You disagree, so please tell me what rights nature grants me?


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Always Smi2le

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OfflineProtester
Stoner ReekingHavok

Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 361
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: question for the socialists... [Re: GazzBut]
    #2374982 - 02/24/04 06:56 AM (20 years, 28 days ago)

As a human the only right you have is cho ice, but you have to be willing to accept the consiquences of your choice.


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I work my shitty 9-5 and I pay my taxes, I'm not hurting anybody else. So why do you care what i do in my spare time.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: question for the socialists... [Re: GazzBut]
    #2374997 - 02/24/04 07:07 AM (20 years, 28 days ago)

GazzBut writes:

Ok So I am saying no rights are given by nature. You disagree...

Dictionary.com also disagrees. But let's move on.

...so please tell me what rights nature grants me?

Every human by his nature as a human has the right to take the actions he judges necessary to further his own existence. With that right comes the obligation to refrain from preventing another human from taking the actions she judges necessary to further her own existence.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: question for the socialists... [Re: Protester]
    #2374998 - 02/24/04 07:07 AM (20 years, 28 days ago)

I know what you mean but for the sake of this debate I wouldnt really call the ability to choose a right. I see that more as a function of being human.


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Always Smi2le

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: question for the socialists... [Re: Phred]
    #2375028 - 02/24/04 07:24 AM (20 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Every human by his nature as a human has the right to take the actions he judges necessary to further his own existence.




Sounds very noble and great doesnt it? But explain to me how this is a right that is bestowed by nature and not a concept from the minds of man?


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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