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Anonymous

question for anyone....
    #2354340 - 02/19/04 12:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

what rights (if any i suppose...) do you think people have?

from what principles are they derived?


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Re: question for the socialists... [Re: ]
    #2354599 - 02/19/04 02:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

although I don't consider myself a socialist, many here think I'm one...having said that.

1) The right to an education
2) The right to medical care
3) Working for fair pay (i.e...no sweat shops)


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflinePhred
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Re: question for the socialists... [Re: Rono]
    #2354656 - 02/19/04 02:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

ooooooh.....


pinky


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
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Re: question for the socialists... [Re: ]
    #2354680 - 02/19/04 02:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

in a more broader sense..a socialist is someone who does not draw an artificial distinction between "equality of opportunity" vs. "equality of results" and favours one over the other..but realizes that they are both one in the same..and works to achieve this equality...in that sense..the soviet communists were about as socialist as the US neocons...

if you substitute the word "conservative" for "socialist" in the question..you will get an answer like "however many dollars you have in the bank"...many socialists actually agree with the conservatives on this point (being as it is..the "golden rule")..and as such assert that equality of rights can be achieved through the forcible redistribution of wealth...but this is not necessarily true...the degree of economic equality is a result more than it is a cause of the greater underlying egalitarianism or lack thereof...however in our current situation..equitable society cannot be achieved without aggressive action against the financial oligarchy...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: question for the socialists... [Re: ]
    #2354952 - 02/19/04 03:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

People have no intrinsic rights. What you are actually asking is "by what rules should we play?"


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Always Smi2le


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Anonymous

Re: question for the socialists... [Re: GazzBut]
    #2354974 - 02/19/04 03:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

People have no intrinsic rights. What you are actually asking is "by what rules should we play?"

if people have no rights, then essentially there are no rules. might makes right.


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Anonymous

Re: question for the socialists... [Re: Rono]
    #2355022 - 02/19/04 04:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

3) Working for fair pay (i.e...no sweat shops)

you need to be more specific. what is fair pay? what should a person be able to afford from an hour of labor?


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Anonymous

Re: question for the socialists... [Re: Rono]
    #2355031 - 02/19/04 04:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

1) The right to an education
2) The right to medical care

if you are not provided with these things, your rights have been violated?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: question for the socialists... [Re: ]
    #2355296 - 02/19/04 05:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

you need to be more specific. what is fair pay? what should a person be able to afford from an hour of labor?

We've been through this before mush. You believe if the boss can find someone desperate enough to work for a bowl of soup a day he should be allowed to get away with it. Even if the "employee" dies from starvation a few days later.


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Anonymous

Re: question for the socialists... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2355427 - 02/19/04 05:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

We've been through this before mush. You believe if the boss can find someone desperate enough to work for a bowl of soup a day he should be allowed to get away with it.

oh, more than that alex. i believe that if the boss can find someone who voluntarily offers to work for nothing at all, or even someone who offers to pay to work, then he should be allowed to accept that offer.

that doesn't answer the question though. what is "fair" pay?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: question for the socialists... [Re: ]
    #2355439 - 02/19/04 05:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You misunderstood what I said.


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Always Smi2le


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Anonymous

Re: question for the socialists... [Re: GazzBut]
    #2355454 - 02/19/04 05:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

how so?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: question for the socialists... [Re: ]
    #2357362 - 02/20/04 02:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i believe that if the boss can find someone who voluntarily offers to work for nothing at all, or even someone who offers to pay to work, then he should be allowed to accept that offer.

You were certainly right when you said your alleged "leftist" beliefs wern't deeply held :smile2:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: question for the socialists... [Re: ]
    #2357900 - 02/20/04 04:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I said people have no intrinisc rights. Things you have said in the past have made me think that you believe there are a set of rights which people have that are constant and unchangeable.


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Anonymous

Re: question for the socialists... [Re: GazzBut]
    #2358187 - 02/20/04 07:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I said people have no intrinisc rights.

so you do not violate a person in any way by killing them, enslaving them, stealing from them, etc?


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Anonymous

Re: question for the socialists... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2358200 - 02/20/04 08:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You were certainly right when you said your alleged "leftist" beliefs wern't deeply held

first off, i never did say that. it doesn't matter how tightly i held them; there is no rational defense for forcefully terminating a voluntary exchange between two people because i think i know what's better for them. there's simply no defense for that. there is absolutely no defensible reason why a person should not be able to offer their labor at any price they are willing to work for, or why anyone else should be barred from accepting that offer.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: question for the socialists... [Re: ]
    #2358205 - 02/20/04 08:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

so you do not violate a person in any way by killing them, enslaving them, stealing from them, etc?



I kill them, steal from them or enslave them but I definitely do not violate any intrinsic rights. However MY personal rules of play would not permit me to do any of these things unless the circumstance were extreme.


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Always Smi2le


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Anonymous

Re: question for the socialists... [Re: GazzBut]
    #2358210 - 02/20/04 08:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

so the answer is no?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: question for the socialists... [Re: ]
    #2358252 - 02/20/04 08:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Are there universal rights that each human should enjoy which have some meaning outside of the minds of men? NO.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Anonymous

Re: question for the socialists... [Re: GazzBut]
    #2358265 - 02/20/04 08:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

how do we then decide "by what rules should we play"? what criteria do we use? on what grounds is our policy based?

(more to come on this... but i gotta go...)


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