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Re: Piss test in 24 hours! [Re: Enlil]
    #17189574 -

Enlil said:
First, it is not illegal for an employer to ask a person's age...at least not in the US.  It is a bad idea, because using age as a factor in hiring is illegal in most cases...

I agree it's immoral...I also think that people should be allowed to be immoral.  There are people who are so against drug use that they might not want to have employees that use simply because they don't want the paychecks they're writing to go to drugs.  Why should they be forced to fit your definition or my definition of morality?

As a society, we've chosen certain factors that an employer can't take into account...things like race, age, gender, etc...some states also include sexual preference in that list.  These classes are protected because of the widespread discrimination that these people have unjustly been subjected to. 

Smoking weed isn't like being black.  It's a choice.  Some would say it's a reflection of one's judgment.  If an employer thinks it's relevant, why should he be forced to ignore it?



Suppose I'm someone who believes that our sexuality is at least partially our own choice, even if certain genetics make us predisposed so a certain orientation.

So, let's for the sake of argument pretend that I am right, and that people do have some degree of control over who they are attracted to.

Wouldn't your logic apply here too? Would it be right for me, as an employer, to require applicants to disclose such information, and choose not to hire them on that basis?

Or let me put it another way, even if it is morally wrong, do you think I should have the right to do so?


--------------------
"The issue is not whether people are 'good enough' for a particular type of society; rather it is a matter of developing the kind of social institutions that are most conducive to expanding the potentialities we have for intelligence, grace, sociability and freedom." - Paul Goodman (1964)

Edited by Aerial Boundaries (11/09/12 10:01 AM)

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Re: Piss test in 24 hours! [Re: Enlil]
    #17189593 -

I'm pretty certain I passed, I drank shit loads of cranberry juice and water until I pissed clear a few times in a row. Drank more water and a 5 hour energy for b vitamins. Ended up not pissing enough into the first cup so they give me another and I sat drinking water for about 45 minutes, pissed in the cup, pretty much clear and gave it to them. Won't know for sure for a week though. For now, time to get stoned. woot!


--------------------
A child's rhyme stuck in my head.
It said that life is but a dream.
I've spent so many years in question
to find I've known this all along.
~ '][' {[]} {[]} {[_,

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Re: Piss test in 24 hours! [Re: Aerial Boundaries]
    #17189612 -

In isolation, your ideals sound good. 

In practice, it's a bit different.  A person's off-duty activities can and do affect performance at work.  Whether it's the occasional hung-over morning...or the memory effects of long-term weed use...it has an effect.  For many jobs, that effect might be irrelevant to the job.  For others, it might be very important.  An employer has to make those decisions based on the best information he has.

Hiring is always a gamble.  You don't know how someone is going to work out until you give them a chance.  Employers like to reduce the risk of bad decisions, and some have chosen to use drug testing to do that.  Whether it's effective or not at increasing productivity, I can't say.  I just think employers should have the freedom to do what they need to do to be competitive.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Piss test in 24 hours! [Re: Enlil]
    #17189625 -

what do you think of the idea of piss tests before hiring as an invasion of privacy, in direct opposition to our constitutional right and unreasonable searches and seizures? might it be better to go ahead with a test when an employee gives a reason to be tested?


*by the way. i just had to stop smoking for a while so i could pass a test, and it seems im getting the job soon, so thats great, but on the other hand i feel like i gave up something vague and dear to me. im not talking about my pee either.


--------------------
How do you know but ev’ry Bird that cuts the airy way,
Is an immense world of delight, clos’d by your senses five?

Edited by venetianblinds (11/09/12 10:13 AM)

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Re: Piss test in 24 hours! [Re: Aerial Boundaries]
    #17189646 -

Aerial Boundaries said:
Suppose I'm someone who believes that our sexuality is at least partially our own choice, even if certain genetics make us predisposed so a certain orientation.

So, let's for the sake of argument pretend that I am right, and that people do have some degree of control over who they are attracted to.

Wouldn't your logic apply here too? Would it be right for me, as an employer, to require applicants to disclose such information, and choose not to hire them on that basis?

Or let me put it another way, even if it is morally wrong, do you think I should have the right to do so?



First, in most states, it is perfectly legal for an employer to hire/fire/promote based on sexual orientation.  No law prevents them from doing it in most states.  As such, most employers do have the right to consider sexual orientation.

Having said that, I think it is morally wrong to consider sexual orientation because orientation is NOT conduct...

The overall point here, however, is not in dicussing whether or not employment discrimination should be allowed...we all agree that it should be allowed.  The only question is what TYPES of discrimination should not be allowed.

I'm sure we all agree that discrimination based on prior work experience is fair.  I'd guess that we all agree that discrimination based on educational background is fair.  I see three categories:

1. Classes of discrimination that are unfair and illegal
2. Classes of discrimination that are legal but unfair
3. Classes of discrimination that are fair and legal

Most things fall in the second category and rightfully so.  After all, none of us really wants the government to decide what is and isn't fair.  As a result, we can disagree on the prudence or morality of a particular type of discrimination, but that doesn't really make either of us right or wrong in our opinion.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Piss test in 24 hours! [Re: venetianblinds]
    #17189654 -

venetianblinds said:
what do you think of the idea of piss tests before hiring as an invasion of privacy, in direct opposition to our constitutional right and unreasonable searches and seizures?



The 4th amendment doesn't have any applicability in this discussion.  That amendment only protects against searches and seizures by the government....not by an employer.

Further, employers don't force you submit to the tests...you're always given a choice of leaving the job or not applying in the first place.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Piss test in 24 hours! [Re: Enlil]
    #17189660 -

i know those answers. something is still wrong, i feel. o well.


--------------------
How do you know but ev’ry Bird that cuts the airy way,
Is an immense world of delight, clos’d by your senses five?

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Re: Piss test in 24 hours! [Re: Enlil]
    #17189668 -

These giant corporations are getting special tax breaks from our government and are even considered persons so I think they should be forced to treat everyone equally regardless of what they put into their bodies and to respect peoples' right to privacy. Your rights shouldn't be voided just b/c you walk onto a certain plot of land.
And might I add that the only way they will even consider hiring you is if you agree to all their bullshit conditions and subject yourself to invasion of privacy.


--------------------
A child's rhyme stuck in my head.
It said that life is but a dream.
I've spent so many years in question
to find I've known this all along.
~ '][' {[]} {[]} {[_,

Edited by sum_peeps (11/09/12 10:30 AM)

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Re: Piss test in 24 hours! [Re: venetianblinds]
    #17189672 -

venetianblinds said:
what do you think of the idea of piss tests before hiring as an invasion of privacy, in direct opposition to our constitutional right and unreasonable searches and seizures? might it be better to go ahead with a test when an employee gives a reason to be tested?



That's basically how it works in Canada (with regards to privacy, not "search and seizure.") An arbitrary drug test is considered a violation of privacy, but they can be required when it can be demonstrated that the employee has a drug problem and that being impaired would be a safety risk. Generally though the employee's privacy trumps the employer's arbitrary desire to know.

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Re: Piss test in 24 hours! [Re: psi]
    #17189678 -

Yeah, the US doesn't have a general right to privacy against private intrusion.  There are privacy laws protecting certain things, of course...but no general right to not have people snoop into your shit.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Piss test in 24 hours! [Re: Enlil]
    #17189928 -

Yeah, I guess there are probably a lot of laws in the two countries that sound like they would do the same thing but actually work quite differently.

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Re: Piss test in 24 hours! [Re: sum_peeps]
    #17189971 -

sum_peeps said:
These giant corporations are getting special tax breaks from our government and are even considered persons so I think they should be forced to treat everyone equally regardless of what they put into their bodies and to respect peoples' right to privacy. Your rights shouldn't be voided just b/c you walk onto a certain plot of land.
And might I add that the only way they will even consider hiring you is if you agree to all their bullshit conditions and subject yourself to invasion of privacy.



If it comes back saying it was diluted, which if they sent it off to a lab that will happen. I wouldn't start back smoking until you get results..

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