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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16594862 -

redgreenvines said:
yeah said:
redgreenvines said:
meditation is a form of thinking.



Isn't that cute... BUT IT'S WRONG!



even the embrace of voidness is a matter of mental activity.
All mental contents is thinking, jut not always dialog, or memory oriented.



This sounds like madness, absence of thought is not thinking. It is absence of thinking (thought).

You said meditation is a form of thinking, when it is a form of not thinking. A formless form that can mold to any thought, yet it is not any thought.

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: teknix]
    #16595019 -

Quote:
I found abdominal breathing to be quite helpful. It allows oxygen into the gut to be absorbed through the intestines increasing the efficiency of oxidative phosphorylation, or creation of useable energy as ATP.


Really?

Quote:
It is said that meditation starts when thought stops.


If this is really the case I have never truly had a successfully meditated. Isn't it enough to calm and centre your attention enough so that when thoughts do arise you don't feel the need to attend to them and can instead let them fall away? I mean I see people here say they meditate like 30 mins or more every day. Is that really 30 mins of not a single thought?

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: birdland]
    #16595025 -

Yeah you can do it without thinking if you train yourself. Like boxers, they generally just use reflexes and don't think about it first.

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: teknix]
    #16595042 -

It is similar to Sung that is a part of Tai Chi.
Quote:
Sung is a Chinese word that is in translatable other than a phrase like; "to move without feeling".
http://www.taijiworld.com/sung-tai-chi.html



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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: teknix]
    #16595077 -

teknix said:
Yeah you can do it without thinking if you train yourself. Like boxers, they generally just use reflexes and don't think about it first.


Ok I think I know what you're saying. It's like when I get really in to a musical improv, there's no "thoughts" in the common use of the word; no voice speaking words in my head.

There is still mental activity though and I am consciously choosing what to play and when. Kind of like the boxer consciously choosing what to do and when. If it was 100% reflexes he would never throw a punch.

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: birdland]
    #16595102 -

I see what you are saying, sure the brain is working, but there is not a thought proceeding the action.

Just like you don't consciously think when you take a breath, you just do it.

Otherwise people would suffocate during meditation if breathing required thinking.

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: teknix]
    #16595178 -

Quote:
there is not a thought proceeding the action.


Maybe, maybe not. I know it certainly feels like being completely in the moment with no awareness of head chatter.

This is getting way off topic anyway. My point is that in these states, I am still consciously directing my actions with or without awareness of the whole process.

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: birdland]
    #16595219 -

Quote:
Just like you don't consciously think when you take a breath, you just do it.

Otherwise people would suffocate during meditation if breathing required thinking.


What is your point? Same thing goes for bone growth, muscle repair, food digestion, etc. Meditation however doesn't happen without consciously deciding to meditate and directing your actions/awareness towards this.

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: birdland]
    #16595316 -

That is the point, you can train to do abdominal breathing without thinking about it. It becomes natural. Like if you swing at a boxer he's probably going to dodge and counter without thinking about it if he has been training.

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: teknix]
    #16595508 -

I meditate, and I think the chakra stuff is b.s. BUT something happens with energy when you meditate, I just question the nomenclature.  So, I think there is truth to it but no human knows what the hell it is.

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: cubensiseye]
    #16595623 -

The truth is in the observation of the experience.

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: teknix] * 1
    #16595752 -

even body awareness is thought.
word thought is only a small part of mental activity.
many things are said about meditation from devout shallowness -
an unexamined life is not a life worth living.

I would agree that excellent yogic meditation will have an absence of dialog type thinking,
but it will be occupied by intentional simple imagery and by a resonance that sustains the concentration.
some of the resonance may include silent repetition of mantra sounds, or words, but these are not words of conversation or of role play acting.

the imagery and resonance are mental forms and events, which by another name are recognized as thoughts.

what is curtailed in meditation is discursive thought - specifically the kind of thought that is oriented to dialog, or which contains dialog, or which plays out scenarios including conversation the self or with with others.

since meditation takes place in mind and has admitted mind object forms and patterns, it has the nature of thought which is the way we refer to events in mind.

you can remove the term 'thought' and still mean the same thing here, just use mind forms - some of which are conducive to a meditative 'state of mind' and some of which are not, namely the ones that include play acting and conversation.

I think it is unwise to consider that all ancient phrases should be taken at face value, and it is even more unwise to imagine that you are not thinking your meditation when that is what you are doing.

sometimes you may have a gap in thought, due to the depth of jhana resonance (mental state intensity) It will be after and before great joy, but it will be a time of no thought.
it can last many minutes.
this is not exactly meditation, but one of the results that can happen from concentration, it is not a goal but it can have some remarkably cathartic effects.
when this happens, the specific chakra used in the concentration practice will be unimportant.

it has nothing to do with glands


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16595774 -

It depends how you want to define thought, irregardless thoughts are nothing more then that. (If you say thought is any function of the brain I would just think it to be delusional.)

Experience is not thought, observation is not thought. Sure they can stems thoughts, but they are before the thought arises.

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16595846 -

Honestly I haven't found mantra's, talismans, hand seals and the like much of a substitute for doing the actual work.

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: birdland]
    #16596425 -

birdland said:
Quote:
I found abdominal breathing to be quite helpful. It allows oxygen into the gut to be absorbed through the intestines increasing the efficiency of oxidative phosphorylation, or creation of useable energy as ATP.


Really?

Quote:
It is said that meditation starts when thought stops.


If this is really the case I have never truly had a successfully meditated. Isn't it enough to calm and centre your attention enough so that when thoughts do arise you don't feel the need to attend to them and can instead let them fall away? I mean I see people here say they meditate like 30 mins or more every day. Is that really 30 mins of not a single thought?


Nah. It's just the ideal and it is achievable. What you're doing is basically what I do.


--------------------

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: yeah]
    #16596659 -

Practicing and working towards emptiness. It is good practice and kinda funny that we must work so hard not to think. ehehe.

It's funny because think is considered a verb, or something to do, when really to not think is the doing and requires effort.

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: teknix]
    #16597813 -

the effort is in managing habit,
that is achieved by noticing habit and replacing it with the proscribed  forms:
such as the posture instruction, the breathing instruction, and the focus of concentration. (on some 'arbitrary' chakra).

while it is said that doing it is harder than thinking about it,

what is meant by that is that to do it requires immediacy or presence.

you see yourself in position, connecting to the breath, as instructed, and focussed, relaxed, following the breath.
very immediate,
not hard,
most easy to be distracted, however, especially to drift or to dream while being relaxed...
it is not hard like a battle of the three musketeers sweating and fighting, but it is like clear minded training for swords, deliberate, awake, immediate, relaxed and applied in the moment.

the only thing hard or frustrating, is that it is in the theatre of mind, where habit is the rule of thumb, personality sequences interrupt the practice and the work of the meditator is, more often than not, to come back to his immediacy and simple mental task. to begin again.

this is the arena of operation for the meditator.

it does not end there

one can continue with
1. mental-state-maintenance or absorption - aka jhana, by intently pursuing concentration and relaxation and in this direction you can reach an empty state which is not harmful in any way but is equivalent to level 6 of salvia - thought and memory are absent/non-functional.
or
2. one can continue with insight which is observation of mind forms arising and passing, i.e. not pursuing jhana beyond simple maintenance of resonant breath practice; in vipassana meditation practice one is aware of distractions honestly and clearly, barely taking note of them as they arise and pass away.


and

are two depictions of Buddha using meditation practice in the face of distracting mind forms.

after a fair bit of meditation,
one will see that there is little difference between a mindform that has color and shape and a mind form that is a sequence of sound, and that there is little difference between an itch and the scratching of the itch, and the noting of the scratching.
each is equal in its presence and impermanence, each is connected to mind by association and the body.

the perspective I am providing you is one of modernity, science, and familiarity with meditation practice. I have no sentimentality about any of the old schools of thought but a great appreciation of the value of meditation, and of studying mind.

I will caution, the term delusion is not equivalent to Mara in the sense of scenes that arise being by nature delusional, scenes always are arising, Mara is pervasive. It is the normal operation of mind.
Delusion does not mean Mara, and Mara is not delusion.
Delusion is in the interpretation of what is being experienced, or the ascription of unsuitable value to what is happening.
i.e. what does it mean?

As such, there is no right or wrong, so a middle way is best, and if one is looking for a good direction, it will be towards loving kindness and clarity.

So while there are two directions meditation can take -> samatha ( concentration) or vipassana (insight) neither is the right path.

In this thread and in most discussions about meditationI support the direction of vipassana or insight but I could not do so without also supporting the direction of chakra meditation or some other samatha practice. the two are inseparable.

I like the images of Buddha facing manifestations of Mara with tranquility, since this has everything to do with understanding day to day life, and since it has a lot to do as well with how samatha practice becomes insight practice.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16598516 -

I had thought that the purpose of two was to work towards one. :shocked:

:lol:

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: teknix]
    #16600359 -

To experience the more subtle aspects of reality, awareness must not be fixated on thoughts at all, for experience is before any thoughts. Observation is even before experience, way before thoughts. Observation is not dependent upon thoughts as thoughts are upon observation.

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Re: What do you guys think about Chakra systems? [Re: teknix]
    #16600670 -

Thoughts are particulate matter of a waveform that only appears exist outside of direct observation. (subconscious)

Pinch your leg and notice how awareness transverses the nervous system to experience directly from that point without even thinking about it.

Subconscious work is being made conscious with conscious effort, beginning with cessation of thought.

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