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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: ]
    #1636479 -

There is never any balance in nature, it's always oscillations around temporary equilibrium points (which are moving targets themselves). Think of grasshoppers or lemmings for example. One year there may be severe overpopulation and the next year they are almost all gone. The problem for us humans is that we don't want to be subjected to nature's reaction to overpopulation and overconsumption. Other animal species don't worry so much about it when it happens to them, they just starve and suffer without knowing why.

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1636481 -

rebelsteve: i really can't see how you can say that we are living in balance with nature. have you been living under a rock your whole life??? have you never had a class on environmental issues?

what??? when did I say we were living in balance with nature?

debate tip number one: when attacking someones argument, attack the persons argument, not an argument you create inside your head and project on to the person you are debating with.

umm, okay, sorry, uh, i guess i misunderstood the title of your thread.  :confused:

if anyone thinks the structure of cities is somehow ecologically transcendental, they are severely misinformed. every city has its own ecosystem, where animals that can adapt to the environment thrive,

in vancouver: squirrals, mice, crows, humans, seagulls, coyotes, racoons are the most apparent examples of this.



i don't care if squirrels, etcetera can live in our cities.  i still think the way we've become is wrong.  we are using up the earth's resources.  we are killing her with the pollution we create.  and although we may be assisting certain species to thrive in our cities, we have killed off and are killing off many many more.  in fact, we are technically in an age of mass extinction--a mass extinction caused by human hands.  it just doesn't seem right to me.  it doesn't seem natural in any way.

the earth is our mother and we should respect her.


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Namaste.

Edited by RebelSteve33 (06/16/03 01:35 AM)

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Adamist]
    #1636485 -

Nicely said Adamist. Really made me think.


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Swami]
    #1636493 -

Termites create "cities" that are as hard as concrete. Are they also out of whack with nature?

LOL.  :smile:

Are termite "cities" taking over the world?  Are termite "cities" destroying the natural habitat of thousands of other plants and animals?  Are termite "cities" causing mass pollution and the extinction of thousands of plant and animal species?

No.

Now if only we could be more like termites.

:crazy:

 


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Namaste.

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1636549 -

Wow, its so interesting how so many parts of philosophy seem to be so closely related. This thread really reminds me of the whole 'Mind-Body' debate, don't you think? I mean there are two main viewpoints, the rational reductionalists, which say that nothing is un-natural, because this is literally impossible!
And then there are those who look at the issue from a moral perspective, with the assumption of something that transcends our physical reality (as was said in an earlier post, I don't see how it is possible for an un-natural act to occur without somehow transcending the laws of nature).

Personally, I agree that EVERYTHING IS NATURAL...you just need to step outside of the human mind and look at this with another kind of eye to see that even though things on Earth that humans are doing might not be 'nice' to us humans, but if it wasn't natural then it wouldn't have happened.

This is just one of those topics I think a lot of us could ramble on and on and on about, but I think that from a philosophical viewpoint at the moment I beleive that nothing is un-natural, until someone can explain how an un-natural thing or event can occur. I'll leave it at that!  :tongue:

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1636572 -

infedelgod:

"I don't think that environmentalists are saying that humans have "transcended the nature of the universe". maybe you're the one debating with made up arguments in your head here."

I never said that environmentalists said that humans have transcended the nature of the universe. My point is, that in order for humans to actually do anything that goes against "nature" they have to somehow access information from outside our universe/reality, because humans can only act on the information supplied to them from their surrounding reality.

it was a question of logic
here is the common enviromentalist argument broken down:

humans are external to nature, this is causing nature to be destroyed

my argument:
but in order for humans to be external from nature, they must have access to information that is external to nature, which is impossible, thusly humans are just an extension of "nature".

I never said that environmental degredation is right, My point was that, the idea of humans having the capacity to "go against nature" is wrong, we are nature, everything we do is just a physical manifestation of the true nature of the universe.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1636582 -

You don't think there is any way we could be living in better balance with our mother earth and all her ecosystems?

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1636589 -


It is my opinion that humans are born only with the capacity to love. Other traits and/or emotions such as anger, selfishness, greed, violence, competetiveness, etcetera, are all taught to us by society. They are learned.

I think this is true for me anyways, I can't say for anyone else. I forced myself to do bad things in order to be accepted by my young peers. I was exploring other emotions- anger and guilt mostly.


As for the subject- I think it's all just a matter of opinion.  :tongue:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Murex]
    #1636596 -

"You don't think there is any way we could be living in better balance with our mother earth and all her ecosystems?"

i think that could may be possible, if all humans were rational, unselfish and intelligent. But....is that human nature....? maybe...maybe not, all we have of evidence is our current situation.

if i was in control, and everyone agreed with me, the human race would live perfectly with our current ecological systems, and all science would be directed towards sustainable energy and robot development, so that we could live in a techonologically advanced, lush, rainforest paradise.

but, thats not our current reality.

"It is my opinion that humans are born only with the capacity to love. Other traits and/or emotions such as anger, selfishness, greed, violence, competetiveness, etcetera, are all taught to us by society"

what does that mean, society?> society is just a product of nature.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/16/03 02:45 AM)

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1637089 -

Are we discussing whether humans are out of balance with *earth* or with the *physical laws of the universe*? The two are very different things. Also, "nature* is not the same as the *physical laws of the universe*. The moon isn't nature - nature refers, at least in my definition, to things on the earth.

Are we living out of balance with the earth? There can be no argument. We're close to wiping ourselves out. We're making extinct 1000s of other species per year. We're polluting the air, the oceans, the soil, the rivers. Speaking of the soil, our atrocious agricultural methods result in the *loss* of 1000s of tons of soil per year, the desertification of vast new areas of land. We're affecting the weather, we're throwing ecosystems out of balance, we're affecting the atmosphere and its abilitiy to shield us from radiation from outer space. Now if you call that not out of balance, I'd like to know what your definition of "out of balance" actually is. Do we have to nuke the earth in order to qualify for your "out of balance" definition?

Are we living out of balance with nature? I would say yes, since I define nature to be the natural order of earth. When we achieved free will, once we became reflective, self-conscious, to some extent independent of our instincts, we became able to make decisions that went against natural law (where natural law is defined as a set of principles which keeps nature in balance.) Because we are an ingenious and adaptable tool using species, we didn't have to deal with the consequences. If we slashed and burned a section of forest, we could just move on. Since we breed like rabbits, more or less, this method of dealing with nature soon became unsustainable, and now here we are.

You say that in order for us to be out of balance we'd have to "transcend the natural laws of the universe". I say this is unnecessarily mystical hubris. Take a scale. Put a weight on one end. Put a heavier weight on the other end. Is the heavy weight "transcending" the other weight? No, it is just heavier. As I said above, our unique qualities enable us to act in a way that is contrary to natural law without having to deal with the consequences. In fact, as I stated *way* above, we have decided to create our *own* mini nature, i.e. the world of technology. We live in this believing that since everything works, we're in harmony with nature. It shields us from dealing with the natural lashback... so much so, that still many people don't believe we have a problem, don't believe in global warming, etc etc: "What does it matter, we still have AC?"

I know where you're coming from. I realized on shrooms a couple years back that we aren't seperated from nature. But it isn't as simple as that. We are a process of nature, but one that is acting negatively with respect to the whole system. We are causing system imbalance, system overload, system weakness.

The logical question for you to ask me next is: "If we're out of balance with nature, and we are a process of nature, are we out of balance with ourselves?" To which I'd answer:
Fuck YES. We're are at the point of causing our own extinction. Any time one of us gets a little bit of power, generally the first thing sHe does is work out how to exploit the people underneath hiR. Our politics is broken, our big organizations are breaking, our media is broken, our social structures are broken. We're not an internally harmonious species.

Edited by somebodyelse (06/16/03 10:18 AM)

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1637116 -

Termites create "cities" that are as hard as concrete. Are they also out of whack with nature?

Are termite "cities" taking over the world? Are termite "cities" destroying the natural habitat of thousands of other plants and animals? Are termite "cities" causing mass pollution and the extinction of thousands of plant and animal species?

First you decried concrete cities as being unnatural. Now you add to your argument post hoc. Poor form, son.

Now to address your new points:

1. ALL animals and plants will expand territorially as much as possible to the extent that the environment will support them. There are no exceptions.

2. All living creatures give off waste (pollution). There are now so many cows that they are affecting the atmospheric methane levels and greehouse gasses - no joke.

3. Humans are NOT the only species to make other species extinct.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Swami]
    #1637129 -

Man, you're being disingenuous. How about the same rigor you demand of others?

1) - Yes, and natural law sets limits on that support. Ecosystems are limited.
2) - There are so many cows *because of humans*; most animal waste is biodegradable.
3) - But they are the only species to make *thousands* of species extinct every year, like he and I said.

Edited by somebodyelse (06/16/03 10:40 AM)

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1637142 -

Man, you're being diingenuous. How about the same rigor you demand of others?
How so? Your vagueness is underwhelming.

1) - Yes, and natural law sets limits on that support. Ecosystems are limited.
And natural law also sets the limit on the number of humans the planet will support. It is the same.

2) - There are so many cows *because of humans*; most animal waste is biodegradable.
Extinct is no good and too many is no good. Please state the exact number of cows that nature deems acceptable.

3) - But they are the only species to make *thousands* of species extinct every year, like he and I said.
"They?!" And you speak of disingenuous? Are you not a HUMAN? Puh-lease!

Once again, exactly how many species are WE allowed to decimate and still be called "natural"?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Swami]
    #1637159 -


1) - Yes, and natural law sets limits on that support. Ecosystems are limited.
And natural law also sets the limit on the number of humans the planet will support. It is the same.

Not if we're out of balance with nature. In that case, we overwhelm nature. (See my post a couple above where I make this argument.)


2) - There are so many cows *because of humans*; most animal waste is biodegradable.
Extinct is no good and too many is no good. Please state the exact number of cows that nature deems acceptable.

Nature would deem acceptable the number of cows that could be supported in a grassland ecosystem where there are predators which feed on the cows. Aren't cows deliberately bred by humans from some sort of African plains species?


3) - But they are the only species to make *thousands* of species extinct every year, like he and I said.
"They?!" And you speak of disingenuous? Are you not a HUMAN? Puh-lease!

Hey, objective voice. Don't sidestep the point. We, OK, we are the *only* species that has *ever* made extinct thousands of species per year, on a repeated and exponentially increasing basis.


Once again, exactly how many species are WE allowed to decimate and still be called "natural"?

As many as we want to. If you ask me how many we can decimate and still be *in balance* with nature, or the earth, then my answer is: fewer than we have already.


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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1637172 -

if we're out of balance with nature. In that case, we overwhelm nature.
The part cannot overwhelm the whole.

you ask me how many we can decimate and still be *in balance* with nature, or the earth, then my answer is: fewer than we have already.
A comet, asteroid or meteor decimated 95% of all species in an incredibly short period of time in the pre-Cambrian era. I guess it was an "unnatural" occurance.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Swami]
    #1637286 -

If a cog comes loose in an incredibly complicated machine and starts to wreck the parts around it, is the cog still in balance with the machine? Is it working within the "machine's laws"?

Was the comet alien to the earth? Yes. Was the comet part of the earth's natural law? No. Was it thus unnatural? Yes.

Unnatural: 1) Violating natural law; 2) inconsistent with an individual pattern or custom.

I'm arguing that nature has an earth-centric definition. If you include the entire universe in nature, then we're arguing different points.

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Adamist]
    #1637321 -

is a beaver dam natural?


humanity is often compared to a swarm of loctuses or viruses to demonstrate our "out of control" tendencies... are grasshoppers and microorganisms also wroking against nature?

you could answer that what sets us apart is our potential for total destruction... but couldn't the bacteria win out? antibiotics aren't working very well these days... it's just as much a possibility that some other part of life would get even more cancerous than we are.

don't like liberal guilt = shame in humanity. we're growing too, and some stages of growth might look like a sprawling, pollution filled asphalt blah that we live in.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Malachi]
    #1637526 -

it's not about what's "natural" because everyone has different definitions, so we're not arguing the same point when we judge humanity that way. I think a comet can be called natural and even human beings can be called "natural" when we destroy ecosystems. the point is you can be within nature and still harm it.

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