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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 8 months
Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!!
    #1635890 - 06/15/03 08:50 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

here is something that annoys me because it seems so illogical:

people are always claiming that humans have lost their way, or they are out of balance with nature, or they have become alienated from nature and are going against "mother gaia".

but how is this possible, humans are social beings, everything we know we get from our sorrounding environment, and as a consequence, everything we do is ultimatly based on the nature of the universe, we are not seperated from earth, or nature, or the universe in any way, all humans can ever possibly be is a direct expression of nature/universe/reality.

thats my belief anyways.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1635958 - 06/15/03 09:19 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

thats my belief anyways.

yeah, well, i completely disagree.

humans are social beings,

right

everything we know we get from our sorrounding environment, and as a consequence, everything we do is ultimatly based on the nature of the universe,

um, no.  everything we know we get from the particular society that we are a part of at a particular point in time.  everything we do is ultimately based on the nature of that society.

we are not seperated from earth, or nature, or the universe in any way,

hahahahhahaha!  lololol! :laugh:

actually, it's really not funny.  have you seen the concrete jungles we have created?  you call that not separated from the earth/nature?????

all humans can ever possibly be is a direct expression of nature/universe/reality.

nope.  maybe in the old days when humans did live in harmony with nature.  now we take more than we need.  we destroy.  we manipulate and make the balance of nature out of whack. 

i really can't see how you can say that we are living in balance with nature.  have you been living under a rock your whole life???  have you never had a class on environmental issues?

we are not a direct expression of nature BECAUSE we are social beings.  our society makes us who we are.  our society teaches us how to live in a completely non-sustainable way with nature.

it's all really fucked up, man, and it needs fixed bad.

that's my belief anyway.

-rebelsteve

 


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Namaste.

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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1635973 - 06/15/03 09:23 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Western civilization is built on the premise of dominating nature, subjugating nature. As such we're naturally at odds with the ecosystem. We look at nature as "resources" to be "exploited"; the people who cut down forests see dollar bills, not ecosystems.

We're so out of touch with nature that most people don't know that we are. Technology has come to replace nature in most of our lives - i.e. we don't live in nature, we live in technology. Our (western) civilization is like a virus colony introduced into a petri dish - it rapidly expands (reproduces), eats everything it can until it has eaten everything, and then dies.

Yes, we are part of nature to the extent that our origins were in nature -- but not in the sense that we are living harmoniously with the biosphere.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1636008 - 06/15/03 09:39 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

YES!  EXACTLY!

:laugh:


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Namaste.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1636073 - 06/15/03 09:55 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

everything we do is ultimatly based on the nature of the universe, we are not seperated from earth, or nature, or the universe in any way, all humans can ever possibly be is a direct expression of nature/universe/reality.

couldn't this be said of anything and everything?
if it was true, how can there be confict of any kind?

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Invisiblesunyata
nonexistentexistentialist
Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 133
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1636112 - 06/15/03 10:11 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

That which can be deviated from is not the true Tao...

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Anonymous

Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1636194 - 06/15/03 10:51 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

yeah man, i see what you're saying.

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InvisibleMountainMist
Stranger

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 53
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1636197 - 06/15/03 10:51 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I think Atomfunksolider has a point, although I don't completely agree with it the way it was phrased.

Let's put it this way: the damage we are doing to the environment is a direct expression of our greed, our violence, and our selfishness. These are morally condemned traits, but as Nietzsche and others pointed out, these traits DO serve the purpose of self-preservation--at least at the level of individual, the tribe, and perhaps even at the level of the nation-state. These traits are the expression of our lower, animal nature, which is our inheritance from (surprise, surprise) Nature itself.

Now, so long as we are technologically primitive, this doesn't present a massive problem. We may wipe out the next tribe, we may wipe out our own civilization due to environmental mismanagement (as the Mayans and others did), but at least there will be other pockets of humanity around the planet who will be blissfully ignorant of our demise and completely untouched by it. The human race will continue.

When we create technologies that can vaporize cities, however, when our industrial activity becomes so widespread and so high-volume, when medical and public-health and agricultural advances allow populations to balloon to unsupportable levels, then we have a massive problem. The problem stems from the very volatile mix of god-like power and brute, animal instinct which characterizes modern man. And, barring some kind of miracle, that volatile mix will probably result in the extinction of our species by the end of the century, if not sooner. (If you don't believe me, try reading "Our Final Hour" by UK Astronomer-Royal Martin Rees.)

Sorry to be such a pessimist about things, but the extinction of the race isn't such a big deal from the universe's point of view. Or even from the Earth's point of view. Massive wholesale extinction has happened many times on our planet. It will happen to us, and it will eventually also happen to whatever dominant species arises to replace us. The only major difference is that we will in all likelihood be the ones responsible for our own extinction. From a cosmic and geological perspective, species extinction is well within the nature of things, so yes, atomicfunk has a point. For us human beings, though, it will still be a major bummer.

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Anonymous

Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1636198 - 06/15/03 10:52 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

yeah man... i see what you're saying.

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Anonymous

Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: sunyata]
    #1636202 - 06/15/03 10:53 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

yesssssss

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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: ]
    #1636216 - 06/15/03 10:59 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I see your concern, atomikfunksoldier. There ought to be a reason that we are acting the way we do in relation to our environment. Why couldn't a certain period of self destruction be necessary for the world to function healthily? like being a teenager...

This, hopefully, is the case. but it could also be that we really are just hellspawn sent to destroy earth.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: MountainMist]
    #1636224 - 06/15/03 11:03 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

It is my opinion that humans are born only with the capacity to love. Other traits and/or emotions such as anger, selfishness, greed, violence, competetiveness, etcetera, are all taught to us by society. They are learned.

In other words, it is human nature to love. Those other things are unnatural.

I feel that our complex societies have stepped beyond the boundaries of Nature. Our societies have turned into sick institutions, breeding a race of diseased humans who feel it is natural to destroy Nature.

We are all sick and we need healed. The Earth needs healed.


--------------------
Namaste.

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Offlinesocratesmind
old hand

Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1,193
Loc: in your house :)
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1636225 - 06/15/03 11:05 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Daniel Quinne ..... Ishmael .... +google= wisdom


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Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
- Abraham Lincoln: Speech in the Illinois House of Representatives, Dec 18, 1840.

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Anonymous

Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1636229 - 06/15/03 11:07 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

what's balance though? can we really NOT be balanced?

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
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Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: socratesmind]
    #1636235 - 06/15/03 11:09 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I will have to look for Ishmael at my library next time I go.

Thanks for the recommendation.


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Namaste.

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 8 months
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1636260 - 06/15/03 11:35 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

rebelsteve, somebody else:

so, in order for your guy's ideas to be concrete, you must believe that humans have the ability to transcend the nature of the universe.

this to me, is severely problematic, where did humans get this ability if we do not have access to any information from outside the universe?

rebelsteve: i really can't see how you can say that we are living in balance with nature. have you been living under a rock your whole life??? have you never had a class on environmental issues?

what??? when did I say we were living in balance with nature?

debate tip number one: when attacking someones argument, attack the persons argument, not an argument you create inside your head and project on to the person you are debating with.

i never said we were living in balance with nature, but what is this so-called balance of nature? if you look at earth from a geological perspective, all that exists is chaos, destruction, life and death, there is no "balance", there is only movement, movement that has no intrinsic meaning. i.e. the dao.

additional note: yes im quite aware of all the problems the environment faces, I used to work for an environmentalist NPO


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/15/03 11:48 PM)

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1636262 - 06/15/03 11:38 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

have you seen the concrete jungles we have created? you call that not separated from the earth/nature?????

Termites create "cities" that are as hard as concrete. Are they also out of whack with nature?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 8 months
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Swami]
    #1636271 - 06/15/03 11:45 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

if anyone thinks the structure of cities is somehow ecologically transcendental, they are severely misinformed. every city has its own ecosystem, where animals that can adapt to the environment thrive,

in vancouver: squirrals, mice, crows, humans, seagulls, coyotes, racoons are the most apparent examples of this.

its ironic that you used the term concrete JUNGLE dont you think?


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1636438 - 06/16/03 01:11 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

so, in order for your guy's ideas to be concrete, you must believe that humans have the ability to transcend the nature of the universe.

I don't think that environmentalists are saying that humans have "transcended the nature of the universe". maybe you're the one debating with made up arguments in your head here.

there's no way to transcend Nature.. but if humans hypothetically destroy the earth's ecosystem and make it uninhabitable, would you still say that that is natural? don't we have to draw the line somewhere as to what is "natural" and what is not? so... before I make the mistake you made and make any assumptions, just what is your definition of natural?

if anyone thinks the structure of cities is somehow ecologically transcendental, they are severely misinformed.

nobody's saying that. it's an issue of natural balance... you know, as in "Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!!" if we change the ecosytem (not transcending anything here), aren't we upsetting the balance of nature? don't some animals have to die to make way for humans and other city dwelling animals? haven't you heard of urban sprawl? natural habitats are being destroyed at a pretty fast pace to make way for humans. I wouldn't call that being in balance with earth, it's pretty one-sided - humans expand, natural ecosystems die.



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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Loc: Bloomington, IN
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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1636460 - 06/16/03 01:20 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Nature often seems un-natural... maybe because it eats itself...


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: ]
    #1636479 - 06/16/03 01:30 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

There is never any balance in nature, it's always oscillations around temporary equilibrium points (which are moving targets themselves). Think of grasshoppers or lemmings for example. One year there may be severe overpopulation and the next year they are almost all gone. The problem for us humans is that we don't want to be subjected to nature's reaction to overpopulation and overconsumption. Other animal species don't worry so much about it when it happens to them, they just starve and suffer without knowing why.

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
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Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1636481 - 06/16/03 01:31 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

rebelsteve: i really can't see how you can say that we are living in balance with nature. have you been living under a rock your whole life??? have you never had a class on environmental issues?

what??? when did I say we were living in balance with nature?

debate tip number one: when attacking someones argument, attack the persons argument, not an argument you create inside your head and project on to the person you are debating with.


umm, okay, sorry, uh, i guess i misunderstood the title of your thread.  :confused:

if anyone thinks the structure of cities is somehow ecologically transcendental, they are severely misinformed. every city has its own ecosystem, where animals that can adapt to the environment thrive,

in vancouver: squirrals, mice, crows, humans, seagulls, coyotes, racoons are the most apparent examples of this.




i don't care if squirrels, etcetera can live in our cities.  i still think the way we've become is wrong.  we are using up the earth's resources.  we are killing her with the pollution we create.  and although we may be assisting certain species to thrive in our cities, we have killed off and are killing off many many more.  in fact, we are technically in an age of mass extinction--a mass extinction caused by human hands.  it just doesn't seem right to me.  it doesn't seem natural in any way.

the earth is our mother and we should respect her.


--------------------
Namaste.

Edited by RebelSteve33 (06/16/03 01:35 AM)

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InvisibleNariusFractal
Sat Chit Ananda
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Registered: 12/19/02
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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Adamist]
    #1636485 - 06/16/03 01:33 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Nicely said Adamist. Really made me think.


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

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Posts: 3,774
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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Swami]
    #1636493 - 06/16/03 01:39 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Termites create "cities" that are as hard as concrete. Are they also out of whack with nature?

LOL.  :smile:

Are termite "cities" taking over the world?  Are termite "cities" destroying the natural habitat of thousands of other plants and animals?  Are termite "cities" causing mass pollution and the extinction of thousands of plant and animal species?

No.

Now if only we could be more like termites.

:crazy:

 


--------------------
Namaste.

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Invisiblezee_werp
a fractalcreature
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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1636549 - 06/16/03 02:13 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Wow, its so interesting how so many parts of philosophy seem to be so closely related. This thread really reminds me of the whole 'Mind-Body' debate, don't you think? I mean there are two main viewpoints, the rational reductionalists, which say that nothing is un-natural, because this is literally impossible!
And then there are those who look at the issue from a moral perspective, with the assumption of something that transcends our physical reality (as was said in an earlier post, I don't see how it is possible for an un-natural act to occur without somehow transcending the laws of nature).

Personally, I agree that EVERYTHING IS NATURAL...you just need to step outside of the human mind and look at this with another kind of eye to see that even though things on Earth that humans are doing might not be 'nice' to us humans, but if it wasn't natural then it wouldn't have happened.

This is just one of those topics I think a lot of us could ramble on and on and on about, but I think that from a philosophical viewpoint at the moment I beleive that nothing is un-natural, until someone can explain how an un-natural thing or event can occur. I'll leave it at that!  :tongue:

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 8 months
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1636572 - 06/16/03 02:25 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

infedelgod:

"I don't think that environmentalists are saying that humans have "transcended the nature of the universe". maybe you're the one debating with made up arguments in your head here."

I never said that environmentalists said that humans have transcended the nature of the universe. My point is, that in order for humans to actually do anything that goes against "nature" they have to somehow access information from outside our universe/reality, because humans can only act on the information supplied to them from their surrounding reality.

it was a question of logic
here is the common enviromentalist argument broken down:

humans are external to nature, this is causing nature to be destroyed

my argument:
but in order for humans to be external from nature, they must have access to information that is external to nature, which is impossible, thusly humans are just an extension of "nature".

I never said that environmental degredation is right, My point was that, the idea of humans having the capacity to "go against nature" is wrong, we are nature, everything we do is just a physical manifestation of the true nature of the universe.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Anonymous

Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1636582 - 06/16/03 02:34 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

You don't think there is any way we could be living in better balance with our mother earth and all her ecosystems?

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OfflineMurex
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Posts: 3,599
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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1636589 - 06/16/03 02:39 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)


It is my opinion that humans are born only with the capacity to love. Other traits and/or emotions such as anger, selfishness, greed, violence, competetiveness, etcetera, are all taught to us by society. They are learned.

I think this is true for me anyways, I can't say for anyone else. I forced myself to do bad things in order to be accepted by my young peers. I was exploring other emotions- anger and guilt mostly.


As for the subject- I think it's all just a matter of opinion.  :tongue:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Murex]
    #1636596 - 06/16/03 02:43 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

"You don't think there is any way we could be living in better balance with our mother earth and all her ecosystems?"

i think that could may be possible, if all humans were rational, unselfish and intelligent. But....is that human nature....? maybe...maybe not, all we have of evidence is our current situation.

if i was in control, and everyone agreed with me, the human race would live perfectly with our current ecological systems, and all science would be directed towards sustainable energy and robot development, so that we could live in a techonologically advanced, lush, rainforest paradise.

but, thats not our current reality.

"It is my opinion that humans are born only with the capacity to love. Other traits and/or emotions such as anger, selfishness, greed, violence, competetiveness, etcetera, are all taught to us by society"

what does that mean, society?> society is just a product of nature.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/16/03 02:45 AM)

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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1637089 - 06/16/03 10:14 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Are we discussing whether humans are out of balance with *earth* or with the *physical laws of the universe*? The two are very different things. Also, "nature* is not the same as the *physical laws of the universe*. The moon isn't nature - nature refers, at least in my definition, to things on the earth.

Are we living out of balance with the earth? There can be no argument. We're close to wiping ourselves out. We're making extinct 1000s of other species per year. We're polluting the air, the oceans, the soil, the rivers. Speaking of the soil, our atrocious agricultural methods result in the *loss* of 1000s of tons of soil per year, the desertification of vast new areas of land. We're affecting the weather, we're throwing ecosystems out of balance, we're affecting the atmosphere and its abilitiy to shield us from radiation from outer space. Now if you call that not out of balance, I'd like to know what your definition of "out of balance" actually is. Do we have to nuke the earth in order to qualify for your "out of balance" definition?

Are we living out of balance with nature? I would say yes, since I define nature to be the natural order of earth. When we achieved free will, once we became reflective, self-conscious, to some extent independent of our instincts, we became able to make decisions that went against natural law (where natural law is defined as a set of principles which keeps nature in balance.) Because we are an ingenious and adaptable tool using species, we didn't have to deal with the consequences. If we slashed and burned a section of forest, we could just move on. Since we breed like rabbits, more or less, this method of dealing with nature soon became unsustainable, and now here we are.

You say that in order for us to be out of balance we'd have to "transcend the natural laws of the universe". I say this is unnecessarily mystical hubris. Take a scale. Put a weight on one end. Put a heavier weight on the other end. Is the heavy weight "transcending" the other weight? No, it is just heavier. As I said above, our unique qualities enable us to act in a way that is contrary to natural law without having to deal with the consequences. In fact, as I stated *way* above, we have decided to create our *own* mini nature, i.e. the world of technology. We live in this believing that since everything works, we're in harmony with nature. It shields us from dealing with the natural lashback... so much so, that still many people don't believe we have a problem, don't believe in global warming, etc etc: "What does it matter, we still have AC?"

I know where you're coming from. I realized on shrooms a couple years back that we aren't seperated from nature. But it isn't as simple as that. We are a process of nature, but one that is acting negatively with respect to the whole system. We are causing system imbalance, system overload, system weakness.

The logical question for you to ask me next is: "If we're out of balance with nature, and we are a process of nature, are we out of balance with ourselves?" To which I'd answer:
Fuck YES. We're are at the point of causing our own extinction. Any time one of us gets a little bit of power, generally the first thing sHe does is work out how to exploit the people underneath hiR. Our politics is broken, our big organizations are breaking, our media is broken, our social structures are broken. We're not an internally harmonious species.

Edited by somebodyelse (06/16/03 10:18 AM)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1637116 - 06/16/03 10:25 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Termites create "cities" that are as hard as concrete. Are they also out of whack with nature?

Are termite "cities" taking over the world? Are termite "cities" destroying the natural habitat of thousands of other plants and animals? Are termite "cities" causing mass pollution and the extinction of thousands of plant and animal species?

First you decried concrete cities as being unnatural. Now you add to your argument post hoc. Poor form, son.

Now to address your new points:

1. ALL animals and plants will expand territorially as much as possible to the extent that the environment will support them. There are no exceptions.

2. All living creatures give off waste (pollution). There are now so many cows that they are affecting the atmospheric methane levels and greehouse gasses - no joke.

3. Humans are NOT the only species to make other species extinct.


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Swami]
    #1637129 - 06/16/03 10:34 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Man, you're being disingenuous. How about the same rigor you demand of others?

1) - Yes, and natural law sets limits on that support. Ecosystems are limited.
2) - There are so many cows *because of humans*; most animal waste is biodegradable.
3) - But they are the only species to make *thousands* of species extinct every year, like he and I said.

Edited by somebodyelse (06/16/03 10:40 AM)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1637142 - 06/16/03 10:43 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Man, you're being diingenuous. How about the same rigor you demand of others?
How so? Your vagueness is underwhelming.

1) - Yes, and natural law sets limits on that support. Ecosystems are limited.
And natural law also sets the limit on the number of humans the planet will support. It is the same.

2) - There are so many cows *because of humans*; most animal waste is biodegradable.
Extinct is no good and too many is no good. Please state the exact number of cows that nature deems acceptable.

3) - But they are the only species to make *thousands* of species extinct every year, like he and I said.
"They?!" And you speak of disingenuous? Are you not a HUMAN? Puh-lease!

Once again, exactly how many species are WE allowed to decimate and still be called "natural"?



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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Swami]
    #1637159 - 06/16/03 10:53 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)


1) - Yes, and natural law sets limits on that support. Ecosystems are limited.
And natural law also sets the limit on the number of humans the planet will support. It is the same.

Not if we're out of balance with nature. In that case, we overwhelm nature. (See my post a couple above where I make this argument.)


2) - There are so many cows *because of humans*; most animal waste is biodegradable.
Extinct is no good and too many is no good. Please state the exact number of cows that nature deems acceptable.

Nature would deem acceptable the number of cows that could be supported in a grassland ecosystem where there are predators which feed on the cows. Aren't cows deliberately bred by humans from some sort of African plains species?


3) - But they are the only species to make *thousands* of species extinct every year, like he and I said.
"They?!" And you speak of disingenuous? Are you not a HUMAN? Puh-lease!

Hey, objective voice. Don't sidestep the point. We, OK, we are the *only* species that has *ever* made extinct thousands of species per year, on a repeated and exponentially increasing basis.


Once again, exactly how many species are WE allowed to decimate and still be called "natural"?

As many as we want to. If you ask me how many we can decimate and still be *in balance* with nature, or the earth, then my answer is: fewer than we have already.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1637172 - 06/16/03 11:00 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

if we're out of balance with nature. In that case, we overwhelm nature.
The part cannot overwhelm the whole.

you ask me how many we can decimate and still be *in balance* with nature, or the earth, then my answer is: fewer than we have already.
A comet, asteroid or meteor decimated 95% of all species in an incredibly short period of time in the pre-Cambrian era. I guess it was an "unnatural" occurance.


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

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Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Swami]
    #1637286 - 06/16/03 11:58 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

If a cog comes loose in an incredibly complicated machine and starts to wreck the parts around it, is the cog still in balance with the machine? Is it working within the "machine's laws"?

Was the comet alien to the earth? Yes. Was the comet part of the earth's natural law? No. Was it thus unnatural? Yes.

Unnatural: 1) Violating natural law; 2) inconsistent with an individual pattern or custom.

I'm arguing that nature has an earth-centric definition. If you include the entire universe in nature, then we're arguing different points.

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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Adamist]
    #1637321 - 06/16/03 12:16 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

is a beaver dam natural?


humanity is often compared to a swarm of loctuses or viruses to demonstrate our "out of control" tendencies... are grasshoppers and microorganisms also wroking against nature?

you could answer that what sets us apart is our potential for total destruction... but couldn't the bacteria win out? antibiotics aren't working very well these days... it's just as much a possibility that some other part of life would get even more cancerous than we are.

don't like liberal guilt = shame in humanity. we're growing too, and some stages of growth might look like a sprawling, pollution filled asphalt blah that we live in.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Malachi]
    #1637526 - 06/16/03 01:43 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

it's not about what's "natural" because everyone has different definitions, so we're not arguing the same point when we judge humanity that way. I think a comet can be called natural and even human beings can be called "natural" when we destroy ecosystems. the point is you can be within nature and still harm it.

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