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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!!
    #1635890 - 06/15/03 10:50 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

here is something that annoys me because it seems so illogical:

people are always claiming that humans have lost their way, or they are out of balance with nature, or they have become alienated from nature and are going against "mother gaia".

but how is this possible, humans are social beings, everything we know we get from our sorrounding environment, and as a consequence, everything we do is ultimatly based on the nature of the universe, we are not seperated from earth, or nature, or the universe in any way, all humans can ever possibly be is a direct expression of nature/universe/reality.

thats my belief anyways.


--------------------
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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1635958 - 06/15/03 11:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

thats my belief anyways.

yeah, well, i completely disagree.

humans are social beings,

right

everything we know we get from our sorrounding environment, and as a consequence, everything we do is ultimatly based on the nature of the universe,

um, no.  everything we know we get from the particular society that we are a part of at a particular point in time.  everything we do is ultimately based on the nature of that society.

we are not seperated from earth, or nature, or the universe in any way,

hahahahhahaha!  lololol! :laugh:

actually, it's really not funny.  have you seen the concrete jungles we have created?  you call that not separated from the earth/nature?????

all humans can ever possibly be is a direct expression of nature/universe/reality.

nope.  maybe in the old days when humans did live in harmony with nature.  now we take more than we need.  we destroy.  we manipulate and make the balance of nature out of whack. 

i really can't see how you can say that we are living in balance with nature.  have you been living under a rock your whole life???  have you never had a class on environmental issues?

we are not a direct expression of nature BECAUSE we are social beings.  our society makes us who we are.  our society teaches us how to live in a completely non-sustainable way with nature.

it's all really fucked up, man, and it needs fixed bad.

that's my belief anyway.

-rebelsteve

 


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Namaste.


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1635973 - 06/15/03 11:23 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Western civilization is built on the premise of dominating nature, subjugating nature. As such we're naturally at odds with the ecosystem. We look at nature as "resources" to be "exploited"; the people who cut down forests see dollar bills, not ecosystems.

We're so out of touch with nature that most people don't know that we are. Technology has come to replace nature in most of our lives - i.e. we don't live in nature, we live in technology. Our (western) civilization is like a virus colony introduced into a petri dish - it rapidly expands (reproduces), eats everything it can until it has eaten everything, and then dies.

Yes, we are part of nature to the extent that our origins were in nature -- but not in the sense that we are living harmoniously with the biosphere.



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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1636008 - 06/15/03 11:39 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

YES!  EXACTLY!

:laugh:


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Namaste.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1636073 - 06/15/03 11:55 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

everything we do is ultimatly based on the nature of the universe, we are not seperated from earth, or nature, or the universe in any way, all humans can ever possibly be is a direct expression of nature/universe/reality.

couldn't this be said of anything and everything?
if it was true, how can there be confict of any kind?


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Invisiblesunyata
nonexistentexistentialist
Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 133
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1636112 - 06/16/03 12:11 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

That which can be deviated from is not the true Tao...


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Anonymous

Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1636194 - 06/16/03 12:51 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

yeah man, i see what you're saying.


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InvisibleMountainMist
Stranger

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 53
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1636197 - 06/16/03 12:51 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I think Atomfunksolider has a point, although I don't completely agree with it the way it was phrased.

Let's put it this way: the damage we are doing to the environment is a direct expression of our greed, our violence, and our selfishness. These are morally condemned traits, but as Nietzsche and others pointed out, these traits DO serve the purpose of self-preservation--at least at the level of individual, the tribe, and perhaps even at the level of the nation-state. These traits are the expression of our lower, animal nature, which is our inheritance from (surprise, surprise) Nature itself.

Now, so long as we are technologically primitive, this doesn't present a massive problem. We may wipe out the next tribe, we may wipe out our own civilization due to environmental mismanagement (as the Mayans and others did), but at least there will be other pockets of humanity around the planet who will be blissfully ignorant of our demise and completely untouched by it. The human race will continue.

When we create technologies that can vaporize cities, however, when our industrial activity becomes so widespread and so high-volume, when medical and public-health and agricultural advances allow populations to balloon to unsupportable levels, then we have a massive problem. The problem stems from the very volatile mix of god-like power and brute, animal instinct which characterizes modern man. And, barring some kind of miracle, that volatile mix will probably result in the extinction of our species by the end of the century, if not sooner. (If you don't believe me, try reading "Our Final Hour" by UK Astronomer-Royal Martin Rees.)

Sorry to be such a pessimist about things, but the extinction of the race isn't such a big deal from the universe's point of view. Or even from the Earth's point of view. Massive wholesale extinction has happened many times on our planet. It will happen to us, and it will eventually also happen to whatever dominant species arises to replace us. The only major difference is that we will in all likelihood be the ones responsible for our own extinction. From a cosmic and geological perspective, species extinction is well within the nature of things, so yes, atomicfunk has a point. For us human beings, though, it will still be a major bummer.


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Anonymous

Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1636198 - 06/16/03 12:52 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

yeah man... i see what you're saying.


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Anonymous

Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: sunyata]
    #1636202 - 06/16/03 12:53 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

yesssssss


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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: ]
    #1636216 - 06/16/03 12:59 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I see your concern, atomikfunksoldier. There ought to be a reason that we are acting the way we do in relation to our environment. Why couldn't a certain period of self destruction be necessary for the world to function healthily? like being a teenager...

This, hopefully, is the case. but it could also be that we really are just hellspawn sent to destroy earth.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: MountainMist]
    #1636224 - 06/16/03 01:03 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

It is my opinion that humans are born only with the capacity to love. Other traits and/or emotions such as anger, selfishness, greed, violence, competetiveness, etcetera, are all taught to us by society. They are learned.

In other words, it is human nature to love. Those other things are unnatural.

I feel that our complex societies have stepped beyond the boundaries of Nature. Our societies have turned into sick institutions, breeding a race of diseased humans who feel it is natural to destroy Nature.

We are all sick and we need healed. The Earth needs healed.


--------------------
Namaste.


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Offlinesocratesmind
old hand

Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1,193
Loc: in your house :)
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1636225 - 06/16/03 01:05 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Daniel Quinne ..... Ishmael .... +google= wisdom


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Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
- Abraham Lincoln: Speech in the Illinois House of Representatives, Dec 18, 1840.


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Anonymous

Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1636229 - 06/16/03 01:07 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

what's balance though? can we really NOT be balanced?


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: socratesmind]
    #1636235 - 06/16/03 01:09 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I will have to look for Ishmael at my library next time I go.

Thanks for the recommendation.


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Namaste.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1636260 - 06/16/03 01:35 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

rebelsteve, somebody else:

so, in order for your guy's ideas to be concrete, you must believe that humans have the ability to transcend the nature of the universe.

this to me, is severely problematic, where did humans get this ability if we do not have access to any information from outside the universe?

rebelsteve: i really can't see how you can say that we are living in balance with nature. have you been living under a rock your whole life??? have you never had a class on environmental issues?

what??? when did I say we were living in balance with nature?

debate tip number one: when attacking someones argument, attack the persons argument, not an argument you create inside your head and project on to the person you are debating with.

i never said we were living in balance with nature, but what is this so-called balance of nature? if you look at earth from a geological perspective, all that exists is chaos, destruction, life and death, there is no "balance", there is only movement, movement that has no intrinsic meaning. i.e. the dao.

additional note: yes im quite aware of all the problems the environment faces, I used to work for an environmentalist NPO


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/16/03 01:48 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1636262 - 06/16/03 01:38 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

have you seen the concrete jungles we have created? you call that not separated from the earth/nature?????

Termites create "cities" that are as hard as concrete. Are they also out of whack with nature?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: Swami]
    #1636271 - 06/16/03 01:45 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

if anyone thinks the structure of cities is somehow ecologically transcendental, they are severely misinformed. every city has its own ecosystem, where animals that can adapt to the environment thrive,

in vancouver: squirrals, mice, crows, humans, seagulls, coyotes, racoons are the most apparent examples of this.

its ironic that you used the term concrete JUNGLE dont you think?


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1636438 - 06/16/03 03:11 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

so, in order for your guy's ideas to be concrete, you must believe that humans have the ability to transcend the nature of the universe.

I don't think that environmentalists are saying that humans have "transcended the nature of the universe". maybe you're the one debating with made up arguments in your head here.

there's no way to transcend Nature.. but if humans hypothetically destroy the earth's ecosystem and make it uninhabitable, would you still say that that is natural? don't we have to draw the line somewhere as to what is "natural" and what is not? so... before I make the mistake you made and make any assumptions, just what is your definition of natural?

if anyone thinks the structure of cities is somehow ecologically transcendental, they are severely misinformed.

nobody's saying that. it's an issue of natural balance... you know, as in "Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!!" if we change the ecosytem (not transcending anything here), aren't we upsetting the balance of nature? don't some animals have to die to make way for humans and other city dwelling animals? haven't you heard of urban sprawl? natural habitats are being destroyed at a pretty fast pace to make way for humans. I wouldn't call that being in balance with earth, it's pretty one-sided - humans expand, natural ecosystems die.




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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
Male User Gallery

Registered: 11/24/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: Humans are out of balance with earth......NOT!!! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1636460 - 06/16/03 03:20 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Nature often seems un-natural... maybe because it eats itself...


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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