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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1534555 -

Quote:
Animals are killed brutally by other animals, for food, defense, mating rituals, leadership, any number of reasons

This is why flames should be allowed

Don't worry about the flames, they wouldn't be worth reading anyway. Just try and prove your point. Give us a list of animals that kill each other in mating rituals or "leadership" battles. You can also list us the your mysterious "any number of reasons" when they kill each other. I can think of one - hunting prey.



You must not be a very scientific person (no insult intended) as I know several animals (Definition of an animal: complex multicellular organisms who requires an outside food source to survive (heterotrophs)) that would support Azmodous original claim. If you would like a detailed list PM me and I will explain all about the Kingdom Animalia (as far as science knows it< not to sound too ful of myself)



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"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer, the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear, permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path."

Edited by WaveRider (05/09/03 02:15 PM)

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: WaveRider]
    #1534574 -

Quote:
If this is so then you must agree that animals are moral as they too inhabit a social order.


agreed

Quote:
If there are no moral 'absolutes,' it would mean that no one may judge another, as the interpretation of the law and morals are up to the individual.


How so? If there are no moral absolutes, then there is no prohibition on judgement.

You seem to miss my point that morals are made by society in such a way that they best serve that society. Saying that morals are not absolute does not mean they have no relevance.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: WaveRider]
    #1534604 -

Quote:
If there are no moral 'absolutes,' it would mean that no one may judge another, as the interpretation of the law and morals are up to the individual.


Or by that same reasoning anyone can judge another if they feel thier morals are "absolute".  If there was such a thing as moral absolutes, then it would define right and wrong which in essance are relative terms...there is only postive and negative based upon the individuals interpretation of reality. :smile:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Phred]
    #1534605 -

Quote:
silversoul7 writes:

Human life (unlike animal life) is not a range of the moment process. It requires long term planning and delayed gratification.


->Animals also display delayed gratification. In a wolf pack, the alpha female dictates who may breed. Other wolf females in the pack may not feel this is right however they undrestand the need to have this occured as the probability of offspring survival increases greatly if only few females of the pack breed. Animal life is not "a range of the moment process", it is more complex then that (even for solitary animals). Animals are not only capable of understanding long term goals but they display the same charactericts of humans. It is just that humans can judge while animals cannot.



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"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer, the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear, permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path."

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: WaveRider]
    #1534614 -

....It is our sense of morality which endows in us the false ability to "judge".


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1534662 -

"How so? If there are no moral absolutes, then there is no prohibition on judgement.

You seem to miss my point that morals are made by society in such a way that they best serve that society. Saying that morals are not absolute does not mean they have no relevance."

It does mean that morals have no relevance unless all humans accept them or they are absolute. This is due to the fact that some accept the morals and others donnot. Meaning, each individual must decide if he agrees with this moral standard or not. I will not be told by anyone what is right and what is not, that is my decision. If I do not feel that doing drugs is wrong but my society says it is, who is right? If there is no absolute then I cannot be told that I am wrong, or rather I can be 'told' I am wrong, but that does not mean I will accept it. Hence morals that are not absolute are irrelevant as they can be "proven" wrong by someone who has a different view.


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"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer, the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear, permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path."

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1535014 -

But moose in mating rituals will sometimes lock antlers resulting in the death of both males.

Extremely rarely.

THERE!, does this satisfy you?!

Of course it doesn't. You were trying to use the fact that "animals kill each other in mating rituals and all sorts of reasons" to justify some point about morality. The fact is of course animals generally don't kill each other in mating rituals or for "all sorts of reasons" and your one in a million exceptions simply prove the rule.

care to get over that unrelated statment and comment on the ACTUALL topic?

You seem to be the one pushing this. I pointed out you a blatant error in your post. Animals gnerally don't kill each other during mating rituals. This is obvious to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the animal kingdom.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1535035 -

yep, he was wrong about that and you're right.

congratulations.

you are the winner.

it has little to do with anything.

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: WaveRider]
    #1535040 -

This is not so. Though the death of a competing male during a dual for a female is uncommon, it is not unheard of.

This really isn't the point he was making. He was saying animals kill each other during mating rituals as a matter of course and that this implies something about morality. This is of course nonsense. We all know an animal might get an infection after a fight and die through sheer accident. This is hardly the same thing.

If you would like a detailed list PM me and I will explain all about the Kingdom Animalia

No need. Just give me a couple of examples of animals that kill each other during mating rituals. Preferably other than insects?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1535052 -

agreed

the conduct of snails and jellyfish? no.

chimpanzees? likely.

neanderthals? almost definitely.

human beings? absolutely.

morality has something to do with consciousness and self-awareness.

one reason i don't eat beef or pork is because i think that pigs and cows do have some kind of mental functioning. i've got no problem with killing a chicken or fish to eat though.


Edited by mushmaster (05/10/03 12:34 AM)

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: ]
    #1535051 -

yep, he was wrong about that and you're right.

Not according to azmo, silversoul and waverider.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1541645 -

Quote:
But moose in mating rituals will sometimes lock antlers resulting in the death of both males.

Extremely rarely.


But you admit it CAN happen! :smirk:

Quote:
THERE!, does this satisfy you?!

Of course it doesn't. You were trying to use the fact that "animals kill each other in mating rituals and all sorts of reasons" to justify some point about morality. The fact is of course animals generally don't kill each other in mating rituals or for "all sorts of reasons" and your one in a million exceptions simply prove the rule.


Where do i say animals kill all the time for "any number of reasons" and for "mating rituals"?!?  You are right if your point is lethal conflict between animals are rare exept the relationship between predator and prey. But i fail to see the relevance in your posts of this thread.  What are you trying to say with the animals dont kill each other?  How does it tie in with morality?  I've conceded your point (whatever it was...), so what have you been getting at all this time?


Quote:
care to get over that unrelated statment and comment on the ACTUALL topic?

You seem to be the one pushing this. I pointed out you a blatant error in your post. Animals gnerally don't kill each other during mating rituals. This is obvious to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the animal kingdom. 


I never was debating this with you.  You are again reading words that dont exist to argue a point that has no relevance. 

"Animals gnerally don't kill each other during mating rituals."---- T-R-U-E ! ! ! ! !

Now after 3 pages, you have successfully proved your irrelevant point.  Care to comment on morality?  Or is the fact you alone have made this thread into a garbage pile satisfy you?! :mad:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1541800 -

But you admit it CAN happen!

So what? You said animals "brutally kill" each other. Not that theoretically after a fight it may be possible for infection to set in and result in death. That's like saying if you scratch someone and 3 weeks later they get an infection you have "brutally killed" them.

Where do i say animals kill all the time for "any number of reasons" and for "mating rituals"?!?

You say it here:

Animals are killed brutally by other animals, for food, defense, mating rituals, leadership, any number of reasons

What are you trying to say with the animals dont kill each other? How does it tie in with morality?

I have no idea, you raised the point. I simply pointed out it was wrong.

"Animals gnerally don't kill each other during mating rituals."---- T-R-U-E ! ! ! ! !

Fine, I'm just at a loss as to why you posted:

Animals are killed brutally by other animals, for food, defense, mating rituals, leadership, any number of reasons

And then spent 3 pages saying how much you wanted to flame me and that "moose do it" when I pointed out you were wrong? Why didn't you post this 3 pages ago and save us the effort?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1541896 -

Alex, whatever.  The statement you got so hung up on was only part of the whole post, which is why i don't understand you nitpicking it to death. 

Now that: "Animals are killed by other animals, for food, defense, mating rituals, leadership, any number of reasons" has been corrected, (absence of 1 word! :mad:) do you have anything to say on the topic of moral truths?

IF NOT, PLEASE REFRAIN FROM A POST ABOUT ANIMALS!


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1542170 -

Fine.

Suffice to say I don't understand why you spent the last 3 pages trying to prove me wrong only to suddenly do a U-turn and then bizarrely say I'm "nitpicking". What was the point in making endless posts about "moose's" and "If only I could flame you" when you knew I was right all the time?

If you'd posted this 3 pages ago there wouldn't have been any reason to reply would there.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1542179 -

Quote:
do you have anything to say on the topic of moral truths?



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1542250 -

I think i've had enough of this thread to be honest. It took 4 pages to establish the blatantly obvious fact that animals don't kill each other during mating rituals. I dread to think how long it would take to establish anything else.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1543002 -

Alex may not be the only one tired of this thread, but I'm going to stick in a latecomer post anyway. At least we got it out of the war zone!

Let's go back to the island. This is a small island, with a dozen coconut trees. On a small island with limited rainfall, these trees would be an essential source of water, on top of the food they provide.

So, if there's one person on the island, and he cuts down all the trees, this is just wasteful--and dumb--but if there are others, is it immoral?

Let's say there were 30 people, and then after fifty years there were sixty people. Some died, some were born. There is only a certain amount of humans that this island with little water and food sources can sustain. Would it be immoral to have babies if it were mutually agreed that the sixty were already straining the island capacity to provide food and/or water?

Also, how is it decided if the island's capacity really has been reached? Are fighting over resources evidence enough? Are objective morals contingent on mutual agreement, or overwhelming empirical evidence, or something else? How much evidence is "overwhelming"?

Or, is there a limit to how indirectly we can sesibly apply the assertion that "any action one human undertakes which nullifies the freedom of action of another human reduces the ability of said human to remain alive," as pinky writes?

If it is still in debate, but a person, from hearing arguments and from observing, feels (is convinced) that the island's sustaining capacity is being strained, is it immoral for that person to have a fourth child? There's no proof, but the person "feels" it is so, and furthermore "feels" that if it is so, then additional humans would indirectly reduce the ability of everyone to survive.

In other words, how closely are conscience and morals related?

hongomon

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: hongomon]
    #1544874 -

Perphaps the question we should ask ourselves is not if there are moral absolutes but rather what would lead an individual to get so caught up with morals to justify suffering? Hasn't anyone every wondered why if a person kills some one it is immoral, but when the state kills some one, it is punishment? Or, in the bigger picture, when a country wages war on another, it is holy or necessary?
We view ourselves with such pride, thinking ourselves BETTER then animals because we THINK and CREATE, always falling to understand our connection to it all. I have come to realize that morals are like laws in that they serve a very especific purpose: to control and limit action of the individual. And, just as laws vary throughout the world, so do morals! How can anyone say that they are rightous in their morals standards when there are so many others to argue your views are wrong?  :confused:   


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer, the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear, permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path."

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Re: Moral Truths [Re: WaveRider]
    #1545121 -

I think I actually lean more toward what you're saying. For one thing, I'm wondering what definition of "sentient" excludes less intelligent forms of life. Everwhere I've looked defines it as "able to sense, or feel". I suppose the assumption is that "sentient" means "able to realize self", or "able to think abstractly"--how else can a pig or a dog be non-sentient?

Anyway, putting the animal issue aside for the time being, my little island contrivances were meant to see how far the idea of objective morality can go in the real world.

hongomon

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